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Cam is out flying. There's a decent cloud of atmosphere around the gold plane, now, millenia of demons making air around themselves for comfort and not sealing it up because why would you bother. There's a small forest, here - the effect is kind of ruined by the lamps it has to grow under, but it's still pretty.
He feels an open summons and lets it grab him -
the Connecticut Yankee summons Demon Cam
from_scratch
connecticut_yankee
"It's a sort of halfhearted attempt to take territory from each other. Battles as such are rare, people just avoid going anywhere already occupied unless they think they have enough force to back it up. Fights happen when they're wrong, when they're right territory changes hands. Been going on as long as anyone can remember. Ah, and I strongly recommend not letting slip to anyone that we know this country as 'England.'"
from_scratch
Cam snorts. "Good to know. Is 'Britain' safe? I can sail in and trivially win battles, and I'm willing to do that against aggressors who don't have time-travelers and makers supporting their populations' quality of life, but I'd want to be assured of the twenty-second-century-standards humane treatment of anybody I'm going to drug until they fall over."
connecticut_yankee
"'Britain' or 'the Britons' means Arthur's people, yes.
I don't know twenty-second-century standards. I can promise no torture, but prisoners would be being not tortured in a sixth-century cell. I should hope that fails. Chained to the wall, bread and water, virtually no light, imprisonment permanent unless ransomed. That sort of thing.
But I don't think taking any reasonable quantity of prisoners would win the war by itself anyway, just gain some territory."
I don't know twenty-second-century standards. I can promise no torture, but prisoners would be being not tortured in a sixth-century cell. I should hope that fails. Chained to the wall, bread and water, virtually no light, imprisonment permanent unless ransomed. That sort of thing.
But I don't think taking any reasonable quantity of prisoners would win the war by itself anyway, just gain some territory."
from_scratch
"I take a dim view of killing people, especially given the uncertain status of the afterlife here. What did you have in mind for war-winning?"
connecticut_yankee
"With my own resources, winning a war would essentially mean killing everyone. You can see why I haven't done it.
There...aren't a lot of procedures for ending wars here. If we could locate and capture their kings, we might get them to recognize some borders for at least a few years. Do you know anything that can do that?"
There...aren't a lot of procedures for ending wars here. If we could locate and capture their kings, we might get them to recognize some borders for at least a few years. Do you know anything that can do that?"
from_scratch
"Not without pictures of the kings in question to go on. And by pictures I mean photographs sufficient for computer face recognition, so if you could get those you'd also know where the kings were and I could just pick them up and walk off with them."
connecticut_yankee
"And people casually asking where the king is in obviously foreign accents don't get to meet kings. Successive iterations of scaring people and demanding to see whoever they take orders from?
A gigantic wall would also set borders, but wouldn't be worth it even if it wouldn't have the same foundation problem."
A gigantic wall would also set borders, but wouldn't be worth it even if it wouldn't have the same foundation problem."
from_scratch
"Eh, if you just want something hard to get over I can do that without having to start it under the ground it particularly well. Make it bottom-heavy. It won't have to support trains. What would be the issue?"
connecticut_yankee
"Partly that putting a wall around a country sounds wrong somehow. I've been trying to tell the peasants they can work for a different lord if they want to, and while a wall doesn't contradict that it might send a different message.
More practically, I hope to have Britain be the one expanding. Not the typical, bloody way of course, but the wall would be a pointless inconvenience if it doesn't match the borders."
More practically, I hope to have Britain be the one expanding. Not the typical, bloody way of course, but the wall would be a pointless inconvenience if it doesn't match the borders."
connecticut_yankee
"Eventually? Everyone gives up on trying to attack the country that has guns, I talk the Britons into not attacking them, and we export things until they decide our way works better than feudalism.
If we publicize that anyone at our border who doesn't want to owe fealty to a king can join the republic, a notable minority might take us up on it. It snowballs from there, of course."
If we publicize that anyone at our border who doesn't want to owe fealty to a king can join the republic, a notable minority might take us up on it. It snowballs from there, of course."
from_scratch
"There's some serious collective action problem there, as long as your neighbors are still operating under a noble class who'd like to keep their jobs and their peasants don't have understood-to-be-trustworthy sources of news about the Britons."
connecticut_yankee
"We don't need everyone joining at once. After the first few start doing much better, their neighbors don't need to trust us if they trust them.
Once hostilities are ended, nobles with too much time on their hands will travel through simply to see what's there. Eventually some of them will decide they'd rather join. We could even use bribery.
It'll be easier now, because they're under the thumb of the same Church. If the Church confirms and spreads the Republic proclamation, the Anglo-Saxons join us. The Picts might follow them, and the Gaels trust the Picts."
Once hostilities are ended, nobles with too much time on their hands will travel through simply to see what's there. Eventually some of them will decide they'd rather join. We could even use bribery.
It'll be easier now, because they're under the thumb of the same Church. If the Church confirms and spreads the Republic proclamation, the Anglo-Saxons join us. The Picts might follow them, and the Gaels trust the Picts."
from_scratch
"Ah, I wasn't sure if there were pagans of some sort running around complicating the issue. But part of what I mean is that it might not be very safe for people to run away and join the Brits, they might run into punishment for defectors between there and here."
connecticut_yankee
"That's why we have to limit it to fiefdoms that already border us. Then it becomes part of our territory, and nobody can effectively attack Britain.
And we might even get other sides to agree that any people group or area of land that wants to join can. We'd be in a much better bargaining position, after all."
And we might even get other sides to agree that any people group or area of land that wants to join can. We'd be in a much better bargaining position, after all."
connecticut_yankee
"Well, thank you. It probably won't come up for some time, even if we negotiated an agreement tomorrow. Few realize how much Britain has changed yet.
What if we just walk into a throne room while the king is holding court? Everyone would see our faces and the fact that they inexplicably can't stop us, but we would be able to leave with a royal bargaining chip."
What if we just walk into a throne room while the king is holding court? Everyone would see our faces and the fact that they inexplicably can't stop us, but we would be able to leave with a royal bargaining chip."
from_scratch
"I could do this while wearing a mask," Cam says. "You're squishier... But I'd be hard pressed to do the job without visible magic. I don't think I can so much as hit people with tranquilizer darts without appearing the guns pre-aimed, I am not a marksman. I can knock out everyone I meet, though."
connecticut_yankee
"How about a suit of plate mail? An armored knight walking in and everyone who challenges him falling over is...I don't know if that particular story has been told, but it's the kind of thing that would sound familiar and believable."
from_scratch
"Me or you in the armor? The problem with that is that without a set of wings I'm likely to fall over more than once on the way in. Being a maker doesn't do a thing for being clumsy. Does that ruin the effect? I could pose as your clumsy squire or something, I suppose."
connecticut_yankee
"Inconveniently, both clumsiness and a squire would be out of place in this sort of tale. On the other hand it's usually exaggerated until a pig becomes an ogre, so fitting expectations perfectly hardly matters.
If I'm in the armor do you think you could manage a disguise as someone who belongs there? You only need to get in the room, but you won't have seen their styles of speech or dress before."
If I'm in the armor do you think you could manage a disguise as someone who belongs there? You only need to get in the room, but you won't have seen their styles of speech or dress before."
from_scratch
"I can make clothes to match if you give me a loose idea of what they should look like. And keep my mouth shut when I can and mumble when I can't?"
connecticut_yankee
"I suppose you won't have to do much talking your way past people if you have twenty-second century chloroform. Can't help you with how they dress, but we'll see people on the way in?
You'll probably stand out for one reason or another, but if there's a sufficiently ominous figure in black armor nobody will remember someone looking slightly out of place."
You'll probably stand out for one reason or another, but if there's a sufficiently ominous figure in black armor nobody will remember someone looking slightly out of place."
from_scratch
"I'll wear a lot of black and a hood. Do you have preferences on what you want the armor to look like or should I be going for 'dark fantasy antagonist, only easy to walk in'?"