"Select is the title for Iomedaean clerics, like Shepherd for Pharasmins or Sower for Erastilians."

Not a paladin. "Thank you. We'll wait, then."

"Anywhere in the pews is fine to sit, and if you'd like water the cistern is back there."

When they're somewhat alone: "we didn't discuss this ahead of time, but - do you think I should trust their confidentiality any less than the Abadarans? The argument for trusting them less is that the Abadaran had aligned incentives because we paid him and also he wants to invest in me - I'm not convinced that's a very strong argument but it's something - and the argument for trusting them as much is that they're Good as well as lawful, so we have a common goal regardless of money changing hands. Not an identical one, of course." Tanya hasn't told Cuoco everything either, but there was no reason to.

"The Abadaran's the one who told you that Iomedaeans can do confidentiality," Belmarniss points out. "If you trust him and think he's competent to know I think that you can trust these ones too."

"Yes, that makes sense." Every extra person taken into confidence can only add risks, but she'll probably have to share details with many more people if she ends up leading a large project. If someone kidnaps her for her knowledge, maybe she can convince them to let her do Good with it in exchange for her cooperation - no, they have mind control here. Well. Maybe everyone is very incompetent and will not kidnap her at all.

Belmarniss will go and get some water as long as they're waiting.

Tanya has a water bottle and she might as well refill it.

Nobody bothers them. After about fifteen minutes a man with a holy symbol and a woman who looks like she might have been crying emerge from a back hallway; the kid who greeted them runs over, bows politely to the woman, and murmurs to the cleric, who glances over at Tanya and inclines his head as though to suggest that she come follow him back down the hall.

The Iomedaen priest is probably more used to offering spiritual counsel than business advice. Tanya will do her best to establish what she's here for before revealing more about herself; this meeting might end more like the one with Cuoco, which was extremely useful but did not require her to talk about medicine and bycicles.

They follow him down the hall.

Select Oliva's office is small and cluttered and sparse but it does have a rug and a slightly battered theater poster advertising a concert from four years ago. It has chairs that stack and he takes an extra one off the stack so both Tanya and Belmarniss can sit opposite the desk.

"The summary I have from the acolyte is that you're presently interested in climbing out of Evil without risking going to Hell before that's managed, and that you have some exotic magic to pledge to the cause of Good toward that end. Is that right?"

"That is correct. I'm Tanya von Degurechaff, this is Belmarniss, thank you for taking the time to see us. To be clear, this is only about me; Belmarniss is a trusted associate who's only here to advise me." Tanya repeats what she told the acolyte. She can demonstrate her nonstandard flight and illusions. Does Select Oliva want a rundown of Tanya's abilities or does he have more questions first?

"So - the existence of Hell is a catastrophic atrocity, and it is a particularly perverse one because no one involved in the system of afterlives intends to use Hell to cause people to do less Evil or to do more Good. Pharasma does not object to Evil, per se, and only prefers it sorted into its designated receptacles, where she abdicates all responsibility for how the beings thus sorted treat each other and warp their landscape; no Good entity who isn't terrifically confused wants anyone punished in that way even though they might dearly want Evil to be less appealing in some other manner; relevant Evil entities don't want to discourage Evil acts at all and rather delight in them, and are only handicapped in their propaganda by the fact that it would reduce the moral responsibility of Evildoers if they fullthroatedly believed that their deeds were righteous.

"I say this because I think it makes it less surprising, if you know that no one is trying to achieve that end, when I tell you that it's very bad at achieving that end. It produces a terror of risk and responsibility in would-be redemptives which makes them move with more timidity than efficacy. This is a problem that comes up all the time, and we can work with you if your number one priority is to reduce the risk of going to Hell; we certainly don't want you to go there either. But this is a separate goal, and one that is at the margin in tension with, the goal of doing as much Good as you can."

Pharasma clearly doesn't object to evil in the sense of people being harmed, or she wouldn't be sending people to hell. Perhaps the primary function of hell, for Pharasma, isn't to punish or disincentivize evildoers in order to reduce evil. Perhaps she merely wants something to hold over mortals, or more negotiating power with other gods. Whatever the case, a system is what it does. Pharasma doesn't get to absolve herself of responsibility by saying she doesn't care that the people she knowingly and deliberately sends to hell are set on fire. It is an outcome she is creating, which means it is an outcome that she prefers.

This would be pointless and very likely counterproductive to say out loud.

Tanya is rational and the threat of hell is enough to move her, even if it is mysteriously bad at moving others.

"I have served as a soldier and field commander in war. I can assure you I will not prove too timid to take bold risks when appropriate. And I do understand your approach; it is often necessary to risk a soldier's life to achieve a greater Good, and I have no problem with that if the soldier is not due to go to Hell. But for as long as I am, my own goal is in fact to redeem myself first of all. Any risks I take will have to be justified with reference to that. However, since the means of redemption is to do the most Good, I do think we can work together profitably. My abilities are not limited to risking myself in order to kill other people." He probably assumes Tanya is an adventurer. "...another reason I do not want to kill people is that that is presumptively Evil. The Shelynites and Abadarans I talked to said that it is almost impossible to ensure I wouldn't be personally committing incidental evils even on a mission that is undoubtedly Good on net. Because of unforeseen outcomes, or maybe because of my own mindset. I don't want to kill people, even if I'm personally safe in the moment. I'm fine with killing beasts that aren't people, to defend others, but I haven't found opportunities to do so yet. If you think this approach is being too timid, I am open to being convinced otherwise but I am also still exploring my options that do not involve fighting anyone at all."

"One effect of being too timid in this way is that it affects your mindset, which affects your alignment. We know mindset matters because - sometimes two paladins do the exact same thing, and one Falls, because the thing that made their act Evil was in their thoughts and motives. Protecting yourself from going to Hell isn't an Evil thing to do, but standing by while others are harmed, because you fear for yourself, even if the specific thing you fear is being Evil, can be. You can still dig out motivated by nothing other than fear, but it will require bigger, swingier actions - which will carry risks of unexpected or incidental harms. By contrast you can think your way out of Evil without lifting a finger, but only by becoming the sort of person who would lift that finger, and for the right reasons. None of this is fair, but we haven't the power to make it fair for you, yet."

"The fact that thoughts matter is exactly why I am what you call timid. I can control my actions; I cannot control my thoughts. And I do not know how thoughts are judged. I don't even fully understand how actions are judged! I am careful because of uncertainty, not fear, and I don't know what mindset you want me to adopt. Although I still think it may be premature for you to say all that without yet knowing anything about me personally." Seriously, this is their standard spiel for anyone who comes here for advice? Why is Oliva being so confrontational? Tanya didn't come here to argue about theology!

"If someone is being unjustly harmed, I will try to protect them. Not at any cost, I'm not committing to throwing my life away to save a stranger, but certainly sometimes. But it is my understanding that if I, say, volunteer to fight in a war, where there are many chances to protect people, I may end up Good or I may end up Evil. Whereas if I stay a civilian, even though I know about the war and could volunteer to fight in it, I'm not doing much Good or Evil, and I'm free to work on civilian projects to the Good. In other words, Pharasma judges the soldier much more harshly than the taxpayer who knowingly funds the war and does not protest the government or revolt. This is, as you say, not fair, it is not just. But there is no point in doing the thing that is predictably more likely to end in my being judged Evil, even apart from the risk of dying while still Evil because of something I did previously."

"If there is some mindset I can adopt, some set of rules I can commit to follow, which would make me not Evil without lifting a finger, then of course I will do that! Please tell me what it is! But the Shelynites told me it's hard to be sure an act is Good, if I put myself in high-stakes situations like combat. Now you tell me that your own paladins do not always manage to follow the rules, because they might accidentally think the wrong thoughts. Forgive me if I'm not willing to trust my afterlife to my ability to think the right thoughts in every moment."

"...you are giving up prematurely on controlling your thoughts. I don't mean, every idle notion that crosses your mind; I mean the things that cause you to act. Which considerations you weigh when you decide to move or be still. This was a favored diversion of Iomedae's, when She lived; she'd tweak a situation in a dozen ways and ask people, what is the right thing now? And now? And what about now? Perhaps that would be useful reading for you; not everything She ever did found space in the Acts. It's one of the places where Law more purely supports Good.

"War is one of the most tragic human endeavors, as She said, and She said it having spent Her entire adult life at war and never falling. Shelyn is not wrong to hate it. But people do not become Evil by fighting a war at random, as though by a fall of the dice. People are likelier to do Evil when they're at war the same way they are likelier to steal food if they are hungry or commit murder if their spouse is caught in another's arms. Not because there is anything confusing about the calmly posed question 'can an occupying force licitly rape the civilians'. Anyone who knows the first thing about what they're talking about can tell you no. Soldiers, as a group, are not reliable in performing the basic and obvious requirements of decency. Iomedae was, also, interested in why that is and how to solve it, and there are books about it, and the Shining Crusade saw its men to Paradise for it; today, Lastwall fields an orthodox Iomedaean army, and the Glorious Reclamation stands ready to serve in the same fashion when the moment to take Cheliax from Hell is ripe, and some of the relevant innovations now prevail and slightly improve the conduct of even more conventional militaries.

"Paladins are generally extremely good at following the rules they must follow and I do not suggest that you should mistrust them; indeed, one exercise it might be useful to you to perform is to stand in the anti-fear aura a sufficiently powerful one can offer, and think about your problem under that assistance. Paladins who do fall, however, are an interesting case because they allow us to distinguish Evil from non-Evil at the granularity of the single act, which is otherwise vanishingly difficult to do. I could do some minor Evil and provided I was still, generally speaking, the shape of person Iomedae finds fit to represent Her, I would not instantly lose my empowerment. A paladin, of Her or any god, will, even if the Evil is having the wrong passions at heart while conducting an execution. In Mendev, one hears they do not let paladins perform executions at all, because they lose too many of them that way, because they don't know how to train them to compose themselves and dismiss the temptation to complete it out of anger."

"That sounds like I am right that if I go to war again, I am more likely to commit Evil. Controlling my thoughts might be possible but seems hard and error-prone and would probably take a long time to train. And I really do not understand why you seem so bent on convincing me to join a war, without knowing anything about me or my abilities." Is he a spiritual counselor or a recruiter for Lastwall and the 'glorious' reclamation of Cheliax? It would be understandable if she had told him what she can do, but she hasn't even described her utility as an aerial observer and scout yet!

Also, what? He thinks she is evil because she let her men rape civilians? The sheer arrogance -

"Allow me to be perfectly clear. I did not fight in a random war. I fought when called to defend my homeland from invasion. To protect our people. I do not need to have it explained to me that rape is evil. Soldiers as a group may not be reliable but my men are. The punishment for rape is dishonourable dismissal and hard labor, and if I had condoned it as an officer I would have deserved the firing squad. If you think not raping people is a great innovation in the laws of war then I am not inclined to place myself in an army under your command, because even if it measures up to Pharasma's standards for Good I am not optimistic that it will measure up to mine."

Deep breath.

She came here to get a thing. She should try to get the thing. 

"I do need to learn how to do the most Good. In Pharasma's eyes. If there are rules for thinking the right thoughts, or adopting the right motives, I will of course study them, and hopefully I won't conclude that I cannot use them. I remain unconvinced that continuing to be a soldier, this time in a war that has nothing to do with me personally but which is managed to Pharasma's liking, is the most Good I could do even if I ignore my personal interest. If that's what you're trying to convince me to do."

"...I chose that example because it seemed unlikely to be personally fraught for you, please pardon me if it is so in the opposite direction. I do not know what you could do for any of the fronts which need help, but most people can do something even if it's not combat and you've suggested what you can do is applicable to combat, and most places where help is most urgently needed are the ones where there is fighting. I have been retired from the army for twelve years and did not have a command when I served, and now do not participate in any fighting myself, as you can observe from the fact that I am instead here in an office.

"Do you want to tell me more about your campaign and your men?"

It seems the conversation has been defused, or possibly not escalated to begin with. Which is good. Obviously. Tanya is here to get something, not to react to incidental insults to her men from someone who barely knows her name.

"...I cannot possibly tell you everything about it. What are you interested in? Also, before I tell you about my personal history or the details of militarily-applicable spells and technology I know of, I would like to request a promise of confidentiality."

"I will not willingly share anything of military import or sensitivity that you disclose to me in the course of this meeting without your freely given leave to do so," he tells her. "I am interested in - what it might have been that rendered you Evil, because an officer with excellent unit discipline fighting at home to defend that home from an unprovoked invasion is, not astounding, but not fully explanatory, of that officer reading Evil. Are you in fact sure it's the war, or is there other conduct that might be complicated in your history?"

"I cannot emphasize enough how much I do not understand Pharasma's standards. The war seems like the obvious culprit, on the simple theory that harming people is Evil - it seemed that way to the Shelynites I talked to - if I've done something else that could be Evil, I don't know what it was, but - I don't trust that I would know what it was." This is a promising direction; maybe he can help identify what Pharasma objected to. Even if it's unlikely to happen in the course of an hour and she has to pay some other Iomedeaen for their time, or study their laws of war, someone who served in an army will at least have a shared basis for understanding in a way Songbird Cuoco couldn't.

"I should start by explaining that I arrived here - that is, in or near Taldor - in an unexplained magical accident. From a different planet." The Abadaran confirmed that this was the obvious deduction from the rest of her story, so there's no point in obfuscating. "You will not find Germania on your maps. We have different technology, and a different tradition of magic, and - more relevantly - we don't have a church of Pharasma. Or of Iomedae. We do have churches preaching of various gods but none of them have empowered priests. They make different and contradictory claims about how gods judge people and the afterlives and I don't think any of them are entirely right. In any case they don't have direct, empirical evidence like the churches here do."

"I was informed I detect as lawful evil three days ago, more or less by accident. I went to the Shelynites, as the most prominent local Good church and also because I had heard they were pacifists and I wanted to know how they reconciled it with the necessity of defense against violence. They said - as far as I can understand - that if you are a pacifist you can easily do Good, and not fear death because you will go to Nirvana, and as the afterlife is infinite it outweighs mortal concerns. While being a violent person, even in a Good cause like the defense of others, tends to encourage Evil tendencies in yourself. Not that that's the only way to do Good, or to avoid Evil, but it seems to be the simplest one to follow, absent an understanding of Pharasma's rules. I don't like it that Pharasma finds it laudable to abstain from defense of the commons, but I don't have to like it in order to follow it to avoid hell. I hope that helps to recontextualize what I said earlier."

"I can tell you about our war - which is ongoing, now without me - but I don't know which details are pertinent. We have very different technology, both magic and other weapons, than seems to exist here, and accordingly we have different tactics and - face moral problems in different situations. I could tell you about our laws of conduct in wartime, or about the combat roles I held and the decisions I was personally making. I started out as an aerial observer and interceptor, then commanded an elite battalion of forty-eight other aerial mages, and lastly a combined-arms unit of around a thousand men including that battalion as well as infantry and armor. Over almost five years of war that amounts to a great many decisions I made which in various ways harmed various people, besides the ones I personally killed in combat."

He listens to this and almost says something, then frowns.

He looks at Belmarniss. "You've been very quiet."

"I too resent Pharasma enormously but slightly less than I did three days ago when in the same Aura Sight I turn out to be Chaotic Good. Before that the going understanding was that she sends everybody purple to the Abyss."