Telri has the Bluff skills of someone who grew up in a civilization where nearly everyone was nonevil. Reading her reactions is really not hard, even if he can't read her mind.

"He decided that a Good-aligned negotiator would be a valuable sign that He wasn't planning to betray you," she says, which she hopes Riudaure will recognize as a partial truth instead of misreading as a complete lie.

And he has the Sense Motive of someone who rose high enough in Infernal Cheliax to escape it. The outline of Telri's omission is immediately obvious; he doesn't know the details, but it's not as if his priors on that whole class of hypothesis were low.

"Or He has failed to employ anyone else who can be trusted not to immediately betray me to Cheliax on their own initiative, at least absent a degree of mind control incompatible with complex negotiations," he corrects. "That is, in fact, something we hope to correct. But it is just as well that He sent you. One of our main interests is the improvement of humanitarian conditions in Razmiran, which, I have gathered, is also one of yours."

"That's an overstatement," she says, "but it is correct that the overlap between the three categories of people who He could trust not to betray Him, people who wouldn't start a fight over His divinity being questioned, and people smart enough to do the job, was low enough that the gains from picking someone Good were sufficiently high to make me the best option." She will leave aside the alternate option, 'simulacrum of her', which she vetoed.

"And, yes, improvement of humanitarian conditions is my first priority as myself, though not in my role as Razmiran's negotiator." It is definitely possible she will err through being too easy to persuade to be Good, but not through deliberately betraying Razmir, that would be wrong.

(She is in fact aware that this job is terrible for her Neutrality, and is careful to break laws in Good ways whenever it won't affect Razmir's trust in her, so she doesn't lose touch with the fact that ultimately civilizational constructs are illusions.)

(They're just really useful illusions, is the thing.)

"You know," he remarks offhandedly, "you and I are so perfectly opposite, in some ways, as to be alike in others. Both of us traitors to our homeland, you serving Evil for Good reasons, myself serving Good for Evil reasons." Which is to say that there may be common ground between them, that does not exist between Razmir and Lastwall; he doesn't say this out loud, of course. One doesn't open negotiations by trying to get the other negotiator to turn traitor.

"Before we continue, I apologize that this is neither the most comfortable location nor the most secure. Is anyone currently watching us, via scry or elsewise?" Presumably even Razmir can't scry Telri directly through a Mind Blank, but he might have developed some sort of inanimate focus item similar to the one Riudaure himself uses to keep an eye on this demiplane when it's unoccupied. "I would like to continue this conversation in my usual base of operations, in Axis, but it is quite unscryable and I don't actually intend to deny Razmir eyes on us, if He would like them."

Telriana is clearly a little uncomfortable with the 'traitors' comment, but doesn't really have anything to say about it!

"Yes. Well. That's reasonable? Razmir can scry on us if he wants to. I assumed we'd both have Mind Blank active so we'd be invisible and inaudible in the scry when we did our negotiating, whoever was scrying on us. I don't think He needs eyes on the situation other than the ones that are me."

He is not actually under Mind Blank all the time, just enough of it that attempting to Wish-kidnap him and sell him to Cheliax would be clearly unprofitable in expectation, but he is, in fact, under it now.

He offers his hand for the Plane Shift.

And she will take it. (doom doom doom)

Nothing doomy happens! They land directly on the doorstep of a townhouse in one of the parts of Axis that living mortals are allowed to visit, which is to say that it looks largely like a cleaner and shinier version of Absalom instead of an actual big city, and there's no technology more advanced than trolleys and gas-lamps visible, but it's still, you know, Axis. It's quite safe to all who mean others no harm.

He opens the door, speaks a password that consists of a dozen random words mostly in languages Telri doesn't speak, and pulls her across the Forbiddance border. Closes the door behind them and leads her to the parlor just off the entryway. The room, and the house as a whole, are unremarkable for a moderately wealthy person of Golarion, rather plain compared to some of Razmir's palaces. The most expensive things about Riudaure's base of operations are only visible to Arcane Sight.

"I suppose I ought to begin by asking what Razmir intends to get out of this arrangement," he says to Telri.

"Abadar is not on speaking terms with Razmir," she says, "but Razmir does, in fact, believe in trade. The Living God does not presently believe Iomedae can offer him enough to make Him end His nation's geopolitical alignment with Cheliax (though He is open to being convinced), but He does think that almost any two countries will have some opportunities to engage in mutually beneficial exchanges, and this includes Lastwall and Razmiran. The most obvious fields of potential gain are in the opening up of international trade, agreements for Lastwall to serve as an intermediary to persuade Cyprian to shift resources away from Razmiran so Razmir can increase His operations in Ustalav so Lastwall can redirect forces from Ustalav to its other fronts, and the sale of magical assistance to Lastwall and its allies in exchange for gold. That subtype of Razmir's long-term objectives that Lastwall is not especially opposed to and may be able to assist with - include the aforementioned operations in Ustalav, -"

(which they both know means 'detaching the haunted, undead-and-famine-ridden southeast counties from Ustalav through economic penetration, religious proselytization and provision of security against the undead legions better than the local barons can provide, and attaching them to Razmiran')

"- the economic development of Razmiran directly, the expansion of the Razmirani military's defensive capacities, and the development of greater international recognition, ideally amongst the gods but more simply among nations."

(They are also both aware that trade with Razmiran and international recognition of Razmiran as a nation usually comes along with international recognition of Razmir's religion as a legitimate religion, which has historically been followed by the missionaries, their paramilitaries and the mobs they whip up attempting to demand first recognition, then autonomy, then control of the nation. Razmir has not exactly made himself easy to trade with.)

(And there is really no such thing as a purely defensive capacity for an army, but that is a polite way of saying 'sufficient forces of adventurers and inexpensive professionals to keep banditry down and stop goblin raiders', and they also both know that the only military resources Razmir has that Galt need worry about are himself and perhaps half-a-dozen of his highest-level priests and mercenaries, and enough garrisons to secure his subjects' defense against raiders are unlikely to matter much in a real war.)

He begins with what is likely the simplest matter. "I had in fact hoped that we could make some kind of arrangement regarding Ustalav," he says. "Our main interest, at the moment, is in having supply lines to the Worldwound that neither require fifth-circle wizards to operate nor traverse forests full of undead, but the current state of Ustalav is also a horror in itself that we would prefer to fix." Just not, you know, a high-priority horror, with Cheliax and the Worldwound right there. "We currently lack the resources to do so ourselves, but we could assist Razmir in doing so, both materially and by getting Cyprian to back off Razmiran, in exchange for the promise of safe passage for our troops and supplies going to and from the Worldwound, and certain guarantees that He will not make conditions for the people of Ustalav even worse than they already are."

"I will not claim that Cyprian is under our control—he is not—or even that we approve of all his current activities—we do not—but he is not, I think, foolish enough to attack a country ruled by a ninth-circle wizard when I have told him that Lastwall's continued support depends on him not doing so. Not least because Razmir and I working together would find it trivial to assassinate him, and I would obviously do so just out of Lastwall's own interests, if it became clear that he were even less controllable than we thought."

Well. That's a lot more than she expected to get. Either this is some kind of clever trick, or he's just bringing it up as a bargaining tool, or she's missing something vitally important regarding his plans. 

"Razmir has no intentions of worsening conditions for the population of Ustalav," she says, and leaves unspoken that whatever Razmir's intentions may be his actual record is mind-numbingly terrible, "and He is certainly not a supporter of the Worldwound's existence, so I do not see major difficulties." Even if he is not a signatory to the treaty, largely due to being broke. Pause. "A conflict between the Living God and Galt would be to no one's advantage, but the more true that is, the less resources He must spend on defending His southern border. The more that could be eased, the more resources" (evil-aligned Razmiran Priests and mercenaries, mostly) "He would have for the north."

Pause. "The main implementation difficulty that I see is that Razmiran and Lastwall do not presently have diplomatic relations," overtly, "and so some formal agreement would need to be made between Razmiran and Lastwall." Downside, all previous treaties have involved allowing Razmiran missionaries in, if Lastwall gets an exception everyone else will want one, and Razmir Really Does Not Want to give this up, His cult is important to Him. Upside, He also really wants to rule Ustalav.

"Ah. This is, of course, the reason I didn't bring up trade first. Lastwall is happy to have diplomatic relations with any country that will deal fairly or at least Lawfully with us—even Cheliax, though we have little to say to each other outside of Worldwound-related matters. The issue I see, as an outside observer, is that Razmir seems to be unwilling to make official agreements with any country that does not recognize Him as a god or at least His cult as a legitimate church.

"Lastwall, of course, forbids the worship of all Evil gods, even" real "recognized ones. I am sure that Razmir, as a Lawful god, has no intention of breaking our laws." The general ban on Evil churches puts Lastwall in the diplomatically convenient position of not having to discuss whether Razmir is, in fact, a god at all, if Razmir is willing to avoid pressing it explicitly.

"Furthermore, while I am willing to believe that Razmir has no intentions of worsening conditions for the population of Ustalav, I am sure that He had no intentions of worsening conditions for the population of what is now Razmiran either, and yet."

"I agree that the general recognition of Razmiran by Lastwall would be politically impossible, due to Lastwall's practices on the worship of Evil gods. I suspect, though, that something could be arranged specifically as a supplement to the Worldwound treaty between Razmiran, Lastwall, and any other countries" that is, any puppet states in partitioned Ustalav, though of course it also refers to other Worldwound-supporting countries that would want to participate "contributing to the construction, supply and usage of a Worldwound transport route from Lake Encarthan to Sarkoris-that-was." As her Mother used to call it.

"The second problem is, of course, more difficult. Many of Razmiran's problems have been purely a product of difficulties that are now resolved," by which she means the Plant Growth shortage, "but it is true that the reforms of the manifold legal systems of Razmiran that might bolster the prosperity of the realm and reassure Lastwall of Razmirans' commitment to Law have not yet been completed." Or, really, gotten out of committee; Razmir's highest officials are all either His priests and thus completely devoted to His will, venal fools, or Telriana, and none of these people have especially pushed government reform (since she hasn't had the time).

"Yes, I imagine that such an agreement could be arranged. Through more official channels, once other preliminary matters have been dealt with.

"As for the second problem, it was, in fact, always going to be a condition of this alliance that we be permitted to send advisors and observers to improve and monitor the treatment of commoners, in all of Razmiran but especially in any territory we might help him acquire. They need not be clerics, although the best experts on many relevant subjects remain part of the Church of Abadar."

She'll nod, and then - 

"That is, in fact, something that will need to be navigated carefully." She pauses. "The presence of foreign observers is not a diplomatic difficulty; Razmiran has no objections to foreign observation. The presence of foreign-born experts in the employ of the Razmirani government is, as you can see, not a national difficulty; Razmir accepts all into His service who desire to serve Him in building the Age of Glory. But agents of foreign governments loyal to these governments with the power to act directly on behalf of these governments, in the Razmirani command chain but without sole allegiance to Razmiran, or outside of the Razmirani command chain but still possessing legal authority over Razmirani citizens, would be an unacceptable assertation of foreign authority over the independent nation of Razmiran."

She pauses, and then says, quietly, "And, yes, sworn servants of gods who deny His divinity would not be welcome inside His realm, which would pose serious problems."

(In the interests of clarity, the churches of all the gods deny His divinity except the trickster-goddess Sivanah; the archdevil Geryon, lord of heresy; and technically that of Nethys, because Nethys doesn't really make statements on topics because anyone He speaks to is immediately driven mad, and His church therefore does not really have unified opinions except that 'magic is cool'.)

"Of course. We would need to place at least a few of our own people in Razmiran, to provide us some assurance that our interventions are indeed serving the interests of Good, but anyone actually embedded in Razmir's government need not be our agent, or even our citizen—merely more competent and less Evil than the subordinates He is currently able to recruit.

"As for the issue of His recognition by the other gods, this would be a great deal easier if he were, in fact, a god. Undeniably so, that is."

"That sounds perfectly reasonable. Razmir has agents from across three continets, and He has no objections to more."

And... she nods. 

"He is working on increasing His divine power so that it will be wholly unambiguous and undeniable that He is a god, and welcomes all support in this. But He is not, in fact, going to stop going around saying 'I am a god,' and expecting to be treated as though that is true, and this is the rock that all previous negotiations have ultimately foundered on. We do not expect that We will, in fact, get this recognition, but He will not give up his claim to the right to it under any circumstances whatsoever."

"Lastwall's official emissaries will bow to Him exactly as much as they would to Asmodeus: not at all. Unofficial emissaries, such as myself, and anyone we recruit to advise Him, are capable of more courtesy.

"This is not, however, where I was going with this. You claim that Razmir welcomes all support in increasing his divine power. I have told you that Iomedae offers this, conditional on sufficient assurance that He would be a god opposed to Asmodeus and Hell, and yet He says that Iomedae offers Him nothing sufficient to make Him abandon his relationship with Cheliax."

"Entirely reasonable.

"However, the reason He does not consider this offer important to him is that He does not, in fact, think that Iomedae making this offer will result in Him becoming more of a god. He does not doubt Her intentions, He doubts Her ability to accomplish this. He thinks that the opposition of the majority of the gods is guaranteed, even if Iomedae and a few of Her allies approve, and that He must therefore find methods of further ascension that do not depend on the active support of the gods."

"It is true that most new gods are immediately destroyed by the others, because most gods seem to at least mildly prefer the status quo to most possible alterations of it. I would doubt that there is any method of ascension powerful enough to directly prevent this, excepting possibly whatever Nethys did, but Nethys is an exception to most rules. However, I would not say that successful ascension requires the active support of a majority of the gods, either—I doubt Iomedae had that. Destroying an infant god is, I suspect, much, much cheaper than fighting even one established god about it, and I also suspect that Iomedae speaks for more than just Herself in this. Likely there are many Good gods who would support a counterbalance to Asmodeus who wasn't Zon-Kuthon, if Iomedae declared Him to be the lesser Evil.

"I do not know the exact details, of course; only that Iomedae would not have made the offer, if She didn't expect it to be meaningful.

"This is leaving aside the fact, of course, that He should oppose Asmodeus anyway, because Asmodeus wants Him to go to Hell. Which He would, in fact, do, if He died today. Even He does not actually appear to be so deluded by His own claims of divinity as to be unaware of this fact."

Okay, 'most new gods are immediately destroyed by the others', that's new information but if Razmir and Riudaure both know it it explains a lot.

"This is important information that I will pass on to Razmir," she says carefully, "since He did not brief me on the details of His ascension method."

She pauses. "... To be clear, you are not in fact modeling Him as some kind of unusual demigod. You genuinely prefer the theory that His priests' ability to cast Cure, Bless, Prayer and Spiritual Weapon, channel energy, use domain powers, and rather a lot of other cleric abilities is purely a result of Him being an exceptionally powerful arcane caster? Because the power to grant a unique sorcerous bloodline with these abilities would be outside the domain of anything any wizard in history except possibly Nex, Geb and Aroden have managed, and this is more exceptional."

"I think the cause of our disagreement is simply that I know more of what is possible with arcane magic than you." You know, being an eighth-circle wizard who studied under Felandriel Morgethai. "Aroden could have, I expect, done any of that, if he had chosen to devote most of his time and energy to pretending to be a god, rather than actually becoming one." Riudaure is really not very impressed with Razmir's choices about how to use his obviously exceptional skills. "Have you ever been the subject of His priests' so-called 'channeling'? One of my agents has. The effects are, in fact, temporary, which true channeling is most certainly not. This led me to observe the process myself with Arcane Sight, to which it is very obviously necromancy, not positive energy at all.

"As for Cure and Bless and such, I can only speculate, but the obvious answer is magic items. You can put anything in an item if you're good enough, even if you're not powerful enough or the wrong type of caster altogether to cast it normally. There's a woman in Corentyn who makes Goblets of Quenching despite being, apparently, a fourth-circle wizard. I had her investigated, because if it is possible to be a non-Asmodean cleric in Cheliax without being detected by the Chelish secret police, we would certainly like to know about it. In the end my agent simply approached her and asked," like an idiot "and it turned out that no, she was not a secret cleric, and was a loyal Asmodean, and she reported him to the secret police. I do not imagine that, at ninth circle, she would have any trouble making items of Cure, and so, no, I do not find Razmir's ability to do so—or something equivalent—more exceptional than Aroden."

(As if there are any timelines where she makes ninth circle before just becoming a god herself anyway.)

Telriana personally considered not having to ever sit down, shut up and stop talking to someone on the grounds that they're eighth circle one of the signing bonuses of working for Razmir! So is that she can talk like books without people telling her to stop sounding weird!

"I have been healed by Razmiran channeling, and have not noticed my wounds opening up again afterwards! And I did, after our last conversation, spend some time carefully observing clerics of Razmir casting the spells I named - and others - when to Greater Detect Magic they have no magic items on them, and the Cure did not have a necromancy aura - it had the usual conjuration - and using a holy symbol of Razmir as a focus that I gave them, which I assure you was in fact nonmagical. I suspect you're going to say they used Magic Aura spells to disguise whatever item they used, and it is in fact true I did not go over literally every possession on every cleric's body with Identify spells, since I am not a wizard and that spell doesn't divinely stabilize. I do grant that you know more about arcane magic than I do," though in fact she has better Spellcraft than most wizards twice her age and he's a good deal younger than she is, "but I also suspect that you may be overweighting the extent to which the gods' opinions on who is a member of the category 'god' is a matter of fact instead of politics. There's an extremely wide category of demigods, godlings, ascendants and powerful outsiders capable of granting cleric spells out there, many of them narrowly restricted to a miniscule region, and the gods try to avoid saying that they're gods, because that diplomatic recognition strengthens their cults. Saying there's one more is a simple claim; there's one sealed in Kyonin and so it doesn't surprise me that there's also one not sealed next door. But saying that Aroden could have solved arcane healing but had much higher priorities - in spite of just how much time He spent on projects that didn't pan out, such as His visits to other worlds - is a complex claim. He had time to do so, it would have had a very large positive impact on both quality of life for mortals and their ability to solve their problems, and so either He couldn't or He didn't value it, and Aroden valued Ability To Accomplish Things in full generality."

She shakes her head. "If you mean to say that Razmir is faking everything he does using magic items, that claim is one we can test! All I need to do is the Greater Detect Magic trick on a priest who's naked, bar a nonmagical holy symbol. I expect I will still see the same Cure spell. Do you?"

This is becoming an increasingly pointless argument.

"No," he says, "though not with particularly high confidence. I predict with somewhat higher confidence that Razmir will not permit us to conduct the test. I will concede that the line between god and nongod is less clear than the established gods would have us believe; Razmir has certainly more claim to the title than, say, the Ruby Prince of Osirion. Perhaps He even has the ability to grant certain cleric spells, although I find other explanations likelier—my original claim was only that He still fears death. Whether any creature who can die and be judged can also be called a 'god', I leave as a matter on which we might respectfully disagree, but my point was that Razmir believes Himself to be the former, as his well-known interest in life-extending magic indicates. I would hate to see anyone go to Hell because His subordinates cannot admit that He is probably not enough of a god to avoid it. He cannot even purchase resurrection insurance without denying His own divinity."

(He's not having this argument, but the claim that Razmir has 'solved arcane healing', and Aroden didn't, is itself a complex one. Aroden's exact capabilities as a mortal aren't perfectly known, given that that was more than four thousand years ago, but there are references to his being able to craft magic items that functioned as permanent Symbols of Healing—which, while no more scalable than whatever Razmir is doing, at least produced actual positive energy. What they didn't do is allow the wielder to pretend to be a cleric.)