« Back
Generated:
Post last updated:
though its color brightly shines
technically vn doesn't have to deal with another sesat in this thread
Permalink Mark Unread

It's possible that the average person in Vanda Nossëo might not have desperately wanted this planet to be a template.

It's further along than the last one was on meeting Vanda Nossëo. Some areas are literate enough that the easiest way to catch up on the last few years is just to read some books, biased though they may be. Azan lost its war with Sesat, but only after making it clear its continued independence was an existential threat and no compromise was possible. At which point an Azani councilmember and his new Sesati owner who was thoroughly fed up with Sesat started spreading rumors with the goal of eventually making it common knowledge that most of the people of Sesat would join in a plot to overthrow Sesat's current government in favor of restoring Azan he to power. They succeeded just well enough to spark a bloody revolution that did end with Sesat's king dead, Azan he ruling a somewhat expanded Azan, and Iral ruling the charred remains of northeastern Sesat. Azan gained a new princess less than a year after the war; she's still a child, but an older child who walks and talks and keeps abreast of Azani politics. A few months ago there was a funeral for Azan he.

New additions to Azan's royal library in the last couple of years include a book about electrical engineering as well as chemistry and biology textbooks that wouldn't be out of place on a twentieth century Earth. Satellite imagery shows some of the war wounded with glowing prosthetics; conjuring the prosthetics gets only bits of wire that do nothing in particular. Checking for alts of Azan's king and princess from the other world turns up two of each.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well.

If the world's a template they might find fifty of these and they'd better start getting them right; this one is weird and they won't know how till they talk to it, and they'd better get 'talking to it' correct.

Would anyone from the original version like to sign on as an envoy or advisor? Are the alts anyone they've already got connections to?

Permalink Mark Unread

There are plenty of places where lots of people like Vanda Nossëo and want to help and can slot frictionlessly into the first contact apparatus. More so the less Vanda Nossëo needs their help. The Azani royals they already know are of course on fine terms with Vanda Nossëo.

Feris of Leopard Hill would love to offer them some advice. He thinks he ought to get paid for it this time.

Fere's also willing to do some more consulting if it helps anything.

Permalink Mark Unread

If there is one thing Vanda Nossëo is qualified to do, it is trading money for expertise. What do their well-paid consultants have to say about the ideal approach here?

Permalink Mark Unread

The government of the Azan they know has lots of detailed information for them on surprise logistical problems they encountered when they switched over to Vanda Nossëo's prison system, and what they ended up preferring for healing given the constraint that it needed to discriminate well, and how things have been going with expanding public education. The princess might want to visit the new Azan eventually when her schedule permits but not immediately.

Feris of Leopard Hill thinks the main concern here is that Azan has an incompletely-assimilated often-visually-distinct Sesati minority and if they react differently there's probably some risk there. He wants to read some writings by Sesatis in Azan that weren't meant for Azani eyes but of course Vanda Nossëo might reasonably object to that. He'd talk to his alt about it but he expects his alt is dead or in Niazon. (He's in Niazon. Feris still wants to meet him, but it won't help that much with first contact.) Eventually he concludes they probably want to talk to the Sesati who helped spark the revolution; Feris knew the other Valan very well until he got sick of Vanda Nossëo and joined the group who disappeared off the map, and Feris is pretty confident this one will have a useful perspective on public opinion. For now Feris doesn't think he can do much better than the book he already wrote without more information. If it were another Sesat he'd advise just generically pushing less hard, on literally everything, but it's Azan so they'll probably join in a few days if they so much as find out that Vanda Nossëo exists. The Sesatis will presumably eventually find out what happened with the first Sesat and Feris advises sticking to the narrative that they sent an incompetent diplomat before. And if they do talk to any Sesatis, Feris thinks they should be less reluctant to try to pitch those Sesatis on their values if they're literally asked to. (This is in the book but Feris is approximately infinitely willing to repeat it any time it might conceivably be useful or relevant or welcome or tolerated.)

Fere thinks they probably have fewer problems ahead of them with Sesat's former slaves this time, since they'll all have been getting used to Azan. She has some ideas for how to explain restraining orders in a way that doesn't result in utter disaster, though she's not very confident that can be done, the whole concept seems fraught. She thinks in general the cultures in Vanda Nossëo separate out different virtues and strengths more - so for instance the vetting for different kinds of magic doesn't just look like nested matryoshka dolls each of which is a strict subset of the last - and that's something it took her a long time to notice and it seems important to a lot of decisionmaking, especially around magic vetting, that otherwise doesn't make any sense.

(Also some people send in lots of advice about the handling of some cities on the other side of the globe.)

Permalink Mark Unread

They send a different team to this -

(no firmly official name was decided upon for the first planet of this kind, but with another in the mix one of the candidates quickly picks up traction - it's "Signature" for reasons having nothing to do with anything in that region at all) -

- version of Azan -

(some jokester immediately proposes calling them all things that start with "sig" in English, and nobody has a better idea in time; working title for the second one is "Signet") -

- since Ligaya et al have already been redeployed, Azan having been handed off to Integration ages ago, and Nelen having worked so poorly.

Melda (an Elf), Luca (a fairy), Shila Kolen (a Hork-Bajir), Casjan (a human), and Zua (a different human) descend to introduce themselves.

Permalink Mark Unread

Outside near the palace they pretty much immediately run into the person Feris thought might be helpful, though if they're just going by what his alt looked like it may be hard to recognize him with all the new scars. He's reading in the sunlight, idly fidgeting with a pair of crutches, and doesn't rise when the visitors appear, though he does look at them and smile politely.

Passersby look at the visitors and make excuses to be nearby, or make excuses to get out of the area quickly. A page with fox ears and a bushy tail openly stares for a moment before catching himself.

Permalink Mark Unread

Luca waves at the fox-guy.

Melda's eyes are good enough to identify Valan scars or no. She drifts in that direction. "Good morning."

Permalink Mark Unread

Fox guy waves back.

Valan tucks his book into a bag. "Good morning. I don't believe I've seen any of you here before."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We got here from a neighboring universe just now. Can you tell me who we'd talk to about that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Depends on what you want to say about it. You're not required to fill out forms to move in but if you want to discuss technology sharing there's a councilmember - Vida - who'd be very interested, and if you're here for other reasons I can help you figure out what to do next. Welcome to Azan."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thank you. We do some technology sharing but are mostly here to establish a diplomatic presence with our newly discovered neighbors."

Permalink Mark Unread

He calls the fox guy over and says, "Go tell Azan she's secretary we have more visitors - and then let Dira know, if you can find him, he'd probably want to know."

The fox guy goes to do that, looking back at the aliens wide-eyed one last time.

And turning back to Melda, Valan asks, "What sort of diplomatic presence?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We're envoys for a group of nations and other collectives called Vanda Nossëo. Usually we land with an intent to get people to join, but first we'd like to know more about what you're doing here! How many species are there among you, for example?"

Permalink Mark Unread

He conspicuously examines the visitors. "At the moment, I couldn't say. It wouldn't shock me if some naturalist had counted all the animals and plants at some point and I know who'd know if that was true and where to find the book about it if so. How about you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure we've got all the plants catalogued either, and even if we had, someone would invent a new one. Sapients, a few hundred, though by the numbers most of them are just a handful of particularly common ones like mine."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, I've gotten the impression humans are common. So if you normally show up and try to get people to join you, why the different approach here?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not a human, actually, I'm an Elf. Casjan is a human, and Zua is too, and Luca used to be." She points. "Usually when we visit a new planet, they aren't already in touch with a lot of other planets. If you're already doing great under your current arrangement, membership may not have much to offer you! Vanda Nossëo has some, I like to say 'friends' but of course these are organizations and not people, with their own umbrella structures over different sets of states."

Permalink Mark Unread

That sounds kind of off, for a regular voluntary association of states in some sort of mutual defense pact or whatever. They're probably a charity or a conquering empire, or both... but how to tell which one?

He shrugs. "We're doing great in some ways and not in others. Someone I know told me once that having his sort of magic powers is like being helpless, but worse, because if someone attacks his loved ones he can trivially get horrifically disproportionate revenge, but that's all he can do about it. In the specific case all his loved ones have powers more useful for defending themselves but it's - it's a pattern. I'm not sure if that's actually what you're wondering about."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh, I've never heard of magic powers that work quite like that. We have different ones. I can demonstrate a very good healing power, for example, if there's anyone who'd like to be healed very thoroughly."

Permalink Mark Unread

Who walks up to someone obviously crippled and says that - someone with very good but very specific intel on Dira, or maybe Adrian. Or conceivably someone who knows another instance.

"Very thoroughly meaning what, exactly?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, for example, if you wanted to keep your scars, or even just some of them, you wouldn't be a good candidate for my healing spell, though Casjan has a different one."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It sounds like you're saying you don't control which things your spell changes, is that right? Do you know how it decides which things count as scars?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can look up the documentation on it, if what counts as a scar is important, but it's correct that I don't control the details of how it executes the healing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'll be surprised if it turns out there's a reasonable definition of scars or injuries for which I wouldn't rather get rid of all of mine but some people will be downright offended if you suggest the things they'd rather keep are flaws of some kind, and, you know, I've been surprised before. Let's see the documentation."

Permalink Mark Unread

She pulls up the documentation for Loki's spells! She has to read it to him since it's not in Sesati.

Permalink Mark Unread

"You know, I know someone who'll be kind of annoyed if you call these specs 'healing', but I know a lot more people who'll want it immediately and not care what you call it. I don't think I'm attached to anything it'd change, want to round up some more witnesses or do you think we've got enough people around already?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can do it an unlimited number of times and will go with your recommendation on how many witnesses to wait for," says Melda.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, I'd just as soon get as many demonstrations as possible out of you, but presumably you want to start selling it at some point and people spreading the word will help with that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, no, I don't take money for it at all. There are people who do but not envoys."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, that's generous. Anyway, I expect to like all the effects you've represented your spell as having and I suppose if it actually does something else that'd be why you picked someone who couldn't realistically fight you or run away."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's touch range." She holds out her hand invitingly.

Permalink Mark Unread

He touches her hand.

Permalink Mark Unread

And he is healed.

Permalink Mark Unread

He shivers at the no-longer-familiar sensation of not being in pain. "Back up for a sec?" There's nothing so urgent it can't be put off for a moment while he checks if he remembers how to do a somersault.

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda gives him space, smiling.

Permalink Mark Unread

He takes a minute to get used to everything being different.

Once he's done with that there are still aliens to deal with. "You seem like you have surprisingly good guesses about how to talk to total aliens from another world you only just found."

Permalink Mark Unread

"One interesting thing about the worlds is that some of them are very similar to each other. There are a couple really common types, but this is only the second of its kind we've found. I wasn't totally sure I recognized you before I healed you but I'm sure now."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I thought it might be something like that. Have you run into weirdly similar people who don't look alike yet?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, we have! How do you go about finding them, do you have a magic available that does it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They're weirdly similar, it's noticeable if you meet two. We're not actively looking."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Ah, we do have magic for it but it's a little annoying to follow up on so most people don't find their alts."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Seems like you have some interesting kinds of magic."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We've found a lot of worlds! Luca and Casjan are the only ones of us with magic natively but I've learned some and so has Zua."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What kinds?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The spells I know are called 'sorcery', and I can also sing some magic songs, though those also work recorded and that's the most common form nowadays. Luca's a fairy, they're telekinetic, and Casjan is a spellbinder, they can do lots of different things but not many of them in one day. Zua is a wizard, they can also do lots of things and normally can't do many in a day but they're much easier to refuel than spellbinders."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't have magic yet at all, our kinds are - physically hard to get, unfortunately."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Physically hard? How do you mean?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, how do people become able to do your kinds of magic?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The songs you just sing them - composing new ones is more complicated but anyone who can sing well enough can use a song spell. Sorcery you have to have an eidetic memory - there's magic for that - and then memorize the spells, which are extremely long and complete nonsense. Spellbinders have to be born that way. Wizards learn it in a classroom setting, normally."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Those sound easier! Maybe people will be less interested in trying ours, it's kind of an ordeal. I don't follow the logic behind exactly what they do to people to make them magic and I'm not terribly inclined to give you details for free but suffice it to say it's deeply unpleasant and sometimes kills people but if you live through having it done to you you come out with powers. And not necessarily the same powers as anyone else."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, we have resurrection, for most kinds of people, so maybe it'll be a little more popular than it used to be, even if it's not more popular than our common kinds," Melda smiles.

Permalink Mark Unread

"...We have... a lot of dead people. And half of them would be a mess to bring back."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, the - mixed news - is that it's expensive. No need to prepare for them to all come back at once next week. But someone with insurance to cover it might want to try your ordeal sooner or later."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They'll have to talk to Jamie about it - that's the young woman with cat ears and no tattoos who sells prosthetics." Her name is foreign and has a sound Azani doesn't but he says it like he's practiced it a lot. "The one who looks like Azan she, and is kind of otherwise reminiscent of her too. Speaking of which, you said you recognized me?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, though I'm afraid we won't be able to introduce you to your counterpart, he decided after a brief period of employment as a teleporter to teleport off the 'map', that being the set of worlds we have explored."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Vanda Nossëo's handling of Sesat on that version of the planet was subject to - I'd be inclined to call it a personality mismatch, but I think the Sesati use stronger words, and at any rate we should probably have swapped out the team instead of attempting to keep the same one in place. So there was some accumulated resentment. But I don't actually know his reasons as an individual, we never met."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I see. And you... showed up and immediately invited them to join you? Is that right?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I believe so. I wasn't on the team, so I don't know if he led with that. I think there was some issue with face-saving - I'm not sure I'll be much better at that, but at least I know to look out for it, so we can hope." Smile.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, I can't think of a worse way to do that than to say it's what you're doing, but I imagine that's more the sort of problem you have when you show up to tell your helpless neighbors they're your vassals now and not so much when you meet dangerous, magical interplanetary civilizations."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I do think the power disparity was really awkward and I hope this time around everyone feels more secure."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm sure they will." Now how is he going to make sure Azan doesn't look weak to these people when Azan has, like, five people who do magic and is only interplanetary in the sense of shamelessly exploiting a neighboring civilization. Oh, no. "So I assume you guys have germ theory and electricity already, right? What're your major unsolved problems?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"There are some kinds of people we can't resurrect - people who aren't what we call 'reductionist' and also don't belong to one of a couple species with particularly easy-to-handle souls. We are, as you might have guessed, sometimes a little lower on tried-and-true personnel than we are on planets we'd like to contact. And of course there's always political drama but it's about things like whether it's okay to eat meat that used to be an animal or whether it's child abuse to bring kids up in certain religions."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What makes people reductionist?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Being solely reliant on their material form."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I doubt we can help with that but it might depend on what else they're made of. I guess it's possible we could end up helping with your personnel shortage. I assume more people will only make your arguments worse."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, but it'll be a drop in the bucket. There's a lot of us."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I did get that impression. Do most of Vanda Nossëo's people go around having political opinions?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Plenty of them don't! But we have a way to make every announced political opinion accessible to anyone who wants to read it. So it gets rather obtrusive."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Which ones don't?" The ones who aren't allowed to, or aren't considered to have opinions worth hearing, he imagines, but which groups are those and how much of the population are they? Or conceivably they could be like Azan and at least theoretically have a system for escalating important comments from arbitrary people.

Permalink Mark Unread

"The ones who have better things to do, I think is the common supposition. My grandfather never touches the network with all the political opinions on it, he does planned ecologies for terraformed planets and plays the harpsichord and takes my little cousins out to feed the ducks and things like that."

Permalink Mark Unread

Hard to tell if that means people recreationally have unimportant opinions or if it means people who know all they have to do is whisper once in the right ear are conspicuously silent in public to signal how they don't need to worry about making themselves heard.

"Those all sound like good things to do. So - something I've noticed about the different countries I know of is that societies can vary a lot, and in ways you don't necessarily think of, and I'm curious about how yours is structured - and I bet you've met enough different people to just answer that without me needing to get specific, yeah?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can say a lot of things about a lot of the states that make up Vanda Nossëo, but they vary, quite a lot. There are only a handful of things that a place has to agree to in order to join, so I grew up in a monarchy and Luca's from a democracy and so on."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Democracy! How's that working out?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, democracy works great," Luca says, now hanging upside down in the air. "At least compared to everything else you can reasonably do with an arbitrary set of people."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It hasn't struck me that way but it's hard to tell cause from effect from coincidence and you might have a bigger sample."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, it's the arbitrary set of people thing that really bites you. If you have a good queen that works fine in a lot of ways especially for a smallish country," Luca says.

Permalink Mark Unread

"It seems like there are even more people who need to be good in a democracy but I haven't really studied them in that much depth so I wouldn't really know."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They just have to avoid overwhelmingly being bad in the same direction," says Luca. "But I'm not a political scientist. Anyway, we don't have a problem with monarchies."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh, that... huh. I wouldn't expect that to work but I guess I can see how it could? What else - what do people eat, how do you handle unfree labor, will anyone take issue with the fact that not everyone wants all the normal physical abilities most people have?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't have to eat!" says Luca. "I can though. Everything humans can and also things that would taste good to humans but are poison."

"I eat tree bark," says Shila Kolen.

"When I'm at home I just eat flowers and the leaves off the trees," says Melda. "But we eat mostly the same things humans do too. - these are specific flowers and leaves that humans can, also, eat."

"We don't have unfree labor, everyone has freedom of emigration and a basic income guarantee they get whether they work at all or not," says Zua. "You have to be really rich as a society to pull it off, but it's incredibly neat once you are."

"I remember the king in the other Azan didn't want to see, and that's fine, we just recommended him a medical alert bracelet so in an emergency that would be clear," Melda says. "Some people have very different physical abilities anyway; there are species that can all fly, or read minds, and nobody's expected to acquire those to match."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Some people read minds, huh? Can you stop them?" Even a fake way to block them means they can't act on the information they get until they're ready to never have anyone trust them again. Probably. Unless they're making bad strategic choices.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Depends. Some Elves - not my subspecies, but most individuals who look like my kind of thing - can do it; them you can keep out by designating some of your thoughts private by internal metaphor. Everyone has a range limit, though some have very large range limits; some kinds can be blocked by some materials; and of course nonconsensual mindreading is illegal in most jurisdictions and incontinent mindreaders usually have to wear some kind of suppressant gadget if they want to go traveling to those jurisdictions."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Will you accept my say-so that Azan she will be displeased by mindreading being permitted within Azan or do I need to go run to her audience chamber and demand her immediate attention?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, I believe you! And nobody among our envoys is an incontinent or untrustworthy mind-reader. Will Azan she need further urgent precautions or contingencies in place or will that do for the time being?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Are your trustworthy and continent mindreaders reading anyone's minds right now, have they read anyone's minds since coming here, and are they planning to start reading minds without consent in the foreseeable future?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They're almost all Elves - the term is, for silly reasons, 'Flat Elves', for the ones who can read minds - and those are at this time all aboard the ship unless they have been called down as float healers or teleporters somewhere that needs extra hands. They might use their telepathy to talk to people who know how to interface with it already. It's possible they would, say, read a small child's mind to find out if they were injured or just lost, if they found a crying toddler. They have not been extracting any information that I would expect anyone to consider private or sensitive and won't start, it's an extremely firm principle Vanda Nossëo adheres to that mindreading is hostile by default and we take it very seriously."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm glad to hear that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Anything else that seems top priority to cover?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, if I say no, what's next on your agenda?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Plausibly asking to be put on Azan she's agenda."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can go let her know you asked and come back here when she's ready to see you." Which will be after they've had a chance to talk strategy since apparently their continued independence hinges on being able to act like they're extremely magically powerful.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay! Do you want us to avoid talking to other people while we wait, it might be a little awkward to do that if they ask us questions."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Why do you think I have the authority to forbid people from talking to each other. Is that normal where you're from?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, but if it would be delicate for any reason this would be a good time to warn us."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I think I'm not any better positioned than you to notice ways it could be awkward for you to talk to people who are very similar to people your allies spooked into a blind jump to some other universe from which they never returned. That seems like it would be cross-culturally obvious and you've decided to talk to people here at all anyway so you clearly have a plan for it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We got along very well with Azan. It's Sesat that was spooked."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Most of the surviving Sesatis live in Azan or Niazon. We're the ones without tattoos."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thank you - why are tattoos popular among non-Sesati in those countries?"

Permalink Mark Unread

He laughs, hand over his mouth, embarrassed and hysterical, and tries to answer. "Um. No, it's." He breaks off laughing a bit more, slightly more happily, and shakes his head. "You know how Azani and Sesati are almost but not quite the same language? We thought we 'conquered Azan', and they thought we 'conquered Azan', and during the brief window where we thought we were agreed on that, we marked them all with slave tattoos. Except Vida. And then it turned out they weren't interested in being conquered in the way we meant it and, uh, anyway."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- I'm not sure my magical translation is capturing the distinction but that sounds like such an interesting story, I hope at some point it's convenient to give the long version."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There isn't a distinction - I mean, the words are the same - they thought we wanted some regime change and for them to serve as unfree labor, but actually we wanted to destroy their country and keep them as chattel. There's a history in the royal library but I can also tell you about it any time."

Permalink Mark Unread

"All right, thank you."

Permalink Mark Unread

And he goes off to talk with Dama.

Permalink Mark Unread

The envoys hang around in the street, out of the way, smiling at people.

Permalink Mark Unread

Some of the people approach them with questions.

Fox guy returns and waits for an opening, bouncing on the balls of his feet and fidgeting with one of his glowing fox ears. When he disturbs his hair enough in so doing, it's possible to see a human ear too, although the fox ones don't look like they're on a headband and do move like real appendages.

Permalink Mark Unread

Shila Kolen snakes her neck down to his level. "Hello!" she says.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hello! You look really cool."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thank you! I'm a Hork-Bajir. What are you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

He sighs dramatically. "A human, I guess."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. Do humans here just sometimes have ears like that? Humans from Stork don't have belly buttons and most humans do."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Noooo, these are fox ears, humans never have fox ears or tails. I bought mine because I wanted to be a fox."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. In my world there's a technology you can use to be all the way a fox, if you want."

Permalink Mark Unread

His eyes go wide and he grins broadly and then two seconds later he gets very dignified. "Perhaps if it doesn't conflict with my duties here."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What's your job?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Um - stuff? I'm a page here, I run messages and carry things do whatever random thing isn't someone's full-time job and doesn't need the king or the council to handle it but still needs to be done."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Cool! How long have you done that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"A few years." He seems pretty young now; he probably started as a child.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I bet you pick up all kinds of cool stuff that way. Do you get a lot of time off? I can ask some people about getting you a chance to be a fox but it'd help if I knew when would be good."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Um, I have time off but is it temporary or permanent?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It can be either. You can turn back if you're within a few hours' time limit, and you can't if you go over without doing some more stuff but it's doable stuff, and you can't change back outside the world neighborhood, like here, because it only works there. Oh, also it makes you able to talk to people telepathically."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Just while you're a fox or forever?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Just while you're not in your original form. But if you wanted to turn into a slightly different fox-human hybrid I think it would still work."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wow. I... really really want to do that but would I live as long as a human if I turned into a fox or would I live as long as a fox?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. You know, I don't know that off the top of my head, because people who do this usually live in my world full time and morph younger whenever they feel like they're getting on a bit."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. Uh, do you think I can probably visit your world again in a few years? Would you mind showing someone who can go between worlds the way there?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We don't have bus stops set up yet but once there's a route you'll be able to get there, now and in a few years too!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You use buses? To go between worlds? Why don't you just teleport?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not everyone can teleport, so instead we have bus drivers who can teleport, and they teleport the buses. The physical bus is just to make sure they know who's coming along and who's not."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, that makes sense. I guess if you need things to put people in and have buses lying around."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure they were exactly lying around, but yeah."

Permalink Mark Unread

Nod. "I imagine my king and her council will be interested in hearing about mass transit in your worlds, we haven't had the necessary technology or magic for long."

Permalink Mark Unread

"On a single planet I think the buses usually fly, instead."

Permalink Mark Unread

His eyes go wide again. "That sounds fun. I thought, uh, that there was some reason buses use wheels even if you can fly? But I only know so much."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think flying costs more fuel and you need better drivers or programs doing the driving?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Programs?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, they're a thing that makes a lot of fancy machines work right. I don't know how much you want to hear about it right this second."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm interested!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"My computer is this thing." She pulls out her tablet; it's ruggedized so it doesn't splinter to bits when handled with her sharps. "It does lots of stuff - I mostly use it for sending messages to other envoys who aren't right next to me at the time but it'd also, like, play music, or tell me where the best-reviewed restaurant that serves tree bark in a particular town is. It kind of does all those things by doing math. So, programmers, people who write programs, are professionals at turning all kinds of random tasks like 'play music' or 'fly a bus' into math, so that computers, which can only do math, can do them. And then you can make machines that use that math to turn bits of a bus on or up or to the left or whatever, whenever they need to be different, so nobody has to personally pilot a bus, you can just make a million copies of the math problem easily as soon as it's been done once."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Huh. I don't think I really get it. Uh, by a restaurant that serves tree bark do you mean someplace really expensive or do you mean something else?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, I mean I literally eat tree bark. Though it's very unusual for restaurants to carry it in areas where my species isn't common."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So do we if we can get it but it's not cheap - I mean not just any tree bark, there's one kind that humans eat. But not by itself, just ground up and added to other things."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is it cinnamon? I like cinnamon but it does have a pretty intense flavor, my favorite tree bark is maple."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. I haven't tasted maple, I don't know if I can eat that one. I haven't heard of anyone else trying it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think humans like maple sap, usually, not the bark."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh, efficient! Hey, if there are all these kinds of people I never heard of, are there kinds of plants, too?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah! The plants on this planet are mostly a lot like the ones on planets humans usually come from, but there are other kinds of planets with their own plants. And some of them you can eat."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Interesting... and human worlds are common, aren't they? Not just that there are a lot but that if you pick a random world..."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. Earths are very common, and then on top of that there are not-Earths like this with humans on them anyway. It's weird and we don't know why it's like that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And things tend to be all different or not different at all? Like there aren't worlds with more of you and no humans but with cinnamon and foxes and lentils?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hork-Bajir seem to only come from the one planet in the one world so far! Though cinnamon and foxes and lentils I think exist on Ardas before humans show up on them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Maybe the Hork-Bajir just haven't shown up there yet?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess that's possible, maybe one day we'll find an Arda from a billion years later and it'll have some!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe it will! We haven't met any Ardas before, I don't think, unless I wouldn't necessarily know if we had."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They have Elves in, like Melda. How many worlds have you met?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Me personally, just this one. I know of another one, and yours and Ardas now, but I wouldn't necessarily know if there are more that the king knows about if no one wanted to come to Azan from them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh, you only hear about them if people move here from them?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess? If they're just off in their other world I wouldn't run into them. I could ask someone but I'm not going to bother someone on Azan she's council about it unless I have a reason to and mostly other people wouldn't know either? Maybe if someone made a list I could find it at the library. Do you have some kind of list of all the worlds anyone in your country has ever heard of?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah! I can look it up on my computer. What they're like and how to get there if I want."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't have one of those. I didn't even know about those until the people from Emika showed up."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So Emika has computers?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess it must! I haven't been but that's where the new books came from, the science ones that Vida's obsessed with. - If you ask me anything I only know the answer to because I work here, I won't tell you, but everyone knows we imported science books and Vida's obsessed with them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's fine, I'm not trying to spy on you!" Shila assures him.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I know. You're fine. So are you thinking of selling computers like yours here and stuff?"

(Meanwhile the other envoys are also approached by a handful of people wanting to introduce themselves and ask nosy questions.)

Permalink Mark Unread

The other envoys are also happy to answer nosy questions! What do these people want to know?

Permalink Mark Unread

Mostly where they came from and what it's like there and what kinds of magic they have. This one kid wants to know if apples grow where they came from and whether they can remove tattoos; this other kid wants to know if they have alien sweets and would like to hire a poison tester to try them all in case they want to sell things here; this non-kid wants to know what the envoys would like from Azan and whether there are people visiting other parts of the planet.

Permalink Mark Unread

All of these people came from places where apples grow somewhere, though Casjan grew up on a more tropical part of his planet. Luca can remove tattoos but it would probably be faster and less uncomfortable to get it done magically. They have alien sweets, and weren't expecting to need a poison tester to sell them, but if that's customary they will be in the market! They want diplomatic relations and trade and migration with Azan, and there are people visiting other parts of the planet too.

Permalink Mark Unread

It may perhaps not be "customary" so much as "a scheme this person came up with to get paid to eat candy" but who's going to clarify? Not any of the witnesses quietly trying to hide their amusement.

This person who isn't the one who first asked about tattoos overheard that part and wants to get hers removed as soon as possible even if it's uncomfortable and slow.

This other person seems nonplussed by their answer to what they're looking for here but eventually manages "...oh, say more?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Okay, Luca can telekinese ink particles out of the tattooed person who wants them out, playing a healing song out of his computer as he goes so they don't bleed all over themselves.

"We're from Vanda Nossëo and teams like ours have landed in every identifiable polity on this planet!" says Zua.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah but why did you come here if you could've just stayed at home?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You mean, like, why do I personally have this job?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...No? Sure? I mean why do people from where you're from want to go to foreign countries if you don't have problems you want us to solve for you, do you just like seeing new places?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We like seeing new places and new things and learning new stuff. And we like helping people, and most places are in a position to find something we can do helpful."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sounds like a good reason." He glances over at the tattoo removal. "And you're not wrong, you seem to be helpful. I think I'd get homesick but maybe not if I could teleport back and forth whenever I wanted."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I like seeing lots of new places, and, yeah, teleporting makes it pretty quick to get home again if I want that."

Permalink Mark Unread

That's about when Valan gets back, coming up over a rooftop and dropping down near the envoys like he's trying to make up for several years of not being an obnoxious showoff.

"Azan she is aware of your presence and expects to be able to respond to any trade proposals you write up for her within a few days. One of Vida's assistants is available to discuss technology sharing as soon as is convenient for you, and I will be available most of today and tomorrow to talk with you about whatever else might be relevant. Here, see?" Seals are absolutely not going to stay a reasonable way to verify information for long but today it's what they've got.

(They should know who Vida is already, she's been on the council since before the war, though she got more famous after it.)

Permalink Mark Unread

"Great, thank you!" says Melda. "Is this a good place for us to be during this time or should we move somewhere else?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's not too much in the way but if you want to come talk where you won't have ten other people coming up to you at once we can go borrow the royal courtyard, I like it there but I have no idea if you will."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I expect it will be perfectly suitable. Maybe Luca can wait here since his services as a tattoo remover seem in demand."

"There's got to be a better way to do this," says Luca.

"I'm sure there is, but it's not standard enough that we have whatever that way is on the ship!" laughs Zua.

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's the other thing wrong with calling that spell a healing spell."

He'll show them to the courtyard.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh?" Melda asks.

Permalink Mark Unread

"It doesn't just do things some people won't think of as healing, it also doesn't do some things they will."

Permalink Mark Unread

"My understanding is that all the spells of that magic type were originally developed for personal use in a specific context and only later shared with others and their creator considers them functional first drafts rather than elegant finalized masterpieces," shrugs Melda. "I'll tell the shipboard coordinator that we want something more directly targeted at tattoo removal here soon. What else should we expect demand for?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I would have felt the same way when I was twenty. Well. I don't know how to scope that question but I guess we can always use more copper wire and steel and aluminum." Being able to use lots of those things puts a floor on their capabilities without also putting a ceiling on them, right? He hopes that's right.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, good news, those are cheap, there are people who can magic up ludicrous amounts of normal material goods like that whenever they like and some of them work for competing commodities sellers. You'll need to be on the transit network if you don't want to arrange every delivery as a one-off, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. So you basically don't go hungry and no one is naked or cold, am I guessing about right?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You are! There are some distribution and education limitations - I don't know if this specific problem is real but as an example I could imagine it being hard to find people who want to make deliveries to that one planet full of indiscriminate mindreaders, and of course if someone's parents don't let them talk to outsiders they may have a hard time coming by directions to the groceries and social services and we have to pick a spot on the tradeoff line between being intrusive towards perfectly good families versus letting some of those slip under our notice. But there is no fundamental material scarcity."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Convenient. Well, now that I'm thinking about what I'd do with a bunch of completely nonmagical objects I'm tempted to ask what you'd want for a hundred thousand doses of measles vaccine but I don't work in medicine and I have no idea if they know how to verify that it is a measles vaccine and not something else."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We have vaccines! Not just measles but a lot of common human diseases; I think the other copy of this planet had one or two that were novel they've been researched by now. Would being able to test our lie-detection song magic work?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It might! I'm not sure how I'd do that either but that's probably just because I haven't thought it through yet. Does it go by exact words or what?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes but not with such exactitude that you can't rely on it through magic translation."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh."

And he gets them into the palace courtyard and then there's no longer an audience to worry about or be reassured by as applicable. "So what kind of deal did you end up working out with the other Azan?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, they wanted full membership almost immediately. Azan as we found it there was one of the closest things to the Vanda Nossëo project among humans at this technological level anywhere," says Melda, "and they recognized us as kindred spirits. The integration of Sesat here might change something, I'm not sure, and the same is true of you already having contact with other worlds."

Permalink Mark Unread

Oh, is that what they're up to. "I think Azan learned a hard lesson about being too enthusiastic about that, if I understand you right. It's very easy to overextend yourself and get everyone you care about worse than killed. But I think people still like the idea of having a country people can come to when they hate where they are. I can show you the agreements we've come to with Iral and Niazon, if you want, they might give you a sense of how our foreign policy has changed in the last few years. But what exactly does full membership entail?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'd love to see those agreements. Full membership in Vanda Nossëo requires a majority affirmative vote of the entire population, and having and enforcing laws against killing people, torturing them, raping them, or preventing them from leaving - other laws vary and some of the enforcement and implementation details do too."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...So basically if they have the same laws as you and open borders with you and no one has any objections you stop bothering to distinguish?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not quite. It's fine to have laws preventing some people from entering your state. The borders remain in place both for local legislation, and so the state can leave Vanda Nossëo later if they want. Membership's primary on-paper benefit is the defense clause - we'll defend member borders from aggression. In practice, it's very economically beneficial - it's not that you can't get tourists and businesses here, or go traveling yourself, without joining up, but it gets a lot smoother when you're a Vanda Nossëo member state and people aren't choosing to leave our umbrella at their own risk."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I can see why the other Azan wanted to join. And I suppose you ran into trouble with Sesat because they heard 'laws against torturing people' and said 'sure, we have those'."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, we usually have to clarify that this includes slaves, or includes children, or includes crazy people, or includes other species, and that if you sarcastically ask about whether rocks can vote you're going to get very earnest telepaths trying to establish communication with your rocks."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If anyone notices that rocks are people I want to know about it but we don't prosecute them for murder when they kill people and invading armies don't enslave them so I don't think they should get a vote."

Permalink Mark Unread

"As far as I know your rocks aren't people, but if they were those conditions wouldn't exclude them from the population that Vanda Nossëo looks at when determining if a vote to join is valid."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I must be more confused about democracy than I thought because I don't see what possible goal is achieved by giving the vote to people who are dumb as rocks and have no skin in the game."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, you don't enforce laws against rocks now, but if you found out they were people you might start! And it's a strong signal that Vanda Nossëo won't back any disenfranchisement, which can be pretty important to get communicated early on - otherwise it's more deceptive than we prefer to operate and it gets some people convinced that we'll back them in what they're doing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I expect this never comes up because rocks aren't people but it's very silly of you and in a way where I'm concerned it will come up in cases that don't involve rocks." Azan's laws have almost no protections against people coming in, declaring themselves citizens, staying long enough to vote, and then leaving. Why would they, people coming in and declaring themselves citizens for a day isn't nearly that much of a headache with a monarchy. "Like, say, donkeys. Donkeys have extremely strong preferences and if you're telepathic you don't need them to talk, and frankly it'd be good to get a telepath to come let us know how to treat our livestock decently, but letting them vote on government policy seems even less likely to go well than letting all humans vote on it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Donkeys are not to my knowledge sapient on this planet unless they assigned..." She checks her computer. "Donkeys are to my knowledge not sapient on this planet. But, yes, if they were, and Azan couldn't countenance letting them vote, you would not be able to join Vanda Nossëo. We'd still trade with you and individuals from polities that haven't joined can immigrate to many Vanda Nossëo polities and some places do choose that option."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What exactly does 'sapient' mean?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- let me check real quick if there are any translation patches I need to be implementing." She looks. "Okay. The way I think of it it means the capacity for agency and reason and preferences. There are a lot of definitions and you're welcome to read a list. In practice if there's controversy over something maybe being a person we err on the side of caution."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I am very confident donkeys have the capacity for agency and preferences. Not so much reason, I guess. Do you care if humans who don't have the capacity for reason vote?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"If there is a large class of humans who don't have the capacity for reason that isn't an already-understood category like 'babies', we can look into it. If there are individual humans who lack the capacity for reason, like comatose people, they still count as part of the population a majority of which has to vote yes, but a normal number of those won't sink a well-liked membership campaign."

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, that's basically who I mean. It sounds like you expect people to vote to join by a wider margin than I thought was typical of elections."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a very wide margin, yes, votes do fail for lack of turnout. Sometimes you get a setup where most of a planet joins and some individual states don't, and the non-joiners wind up with most of the people who voted no or abstained - who of course can't be prevented from leaving their member homes - and the people from those places who did want to join filter out, but obviously there's no solution that makes everyone happy and we settle in this case for requiring overwhelming support to join."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Did you have that with very many countries on the other version of this planet?"

That's about when someone shows up and hands him a book containing among other things the treaties with Niazon and Iral that he mentioned earlier. Valan refrains from explaining how they knew to do that.

Permalink Mark Unread

Maybe they have telepathy from whoever else they've been talking to, how would she know! "Thank you so much - Casjan, if you don't mind looking these over as a first pass? - thank you - yes, including the Azan there, but not the Sesat at all."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What happened with Sesat?"

The treaties are notably less idealistic than Azan's previous foreign policy. They pushed pretty hard to make their concessions mostly in land rather than in border controls, but still. The war with Sesat wouldn't have happened under these terms, because Azan has, if not given up entirely, at least ceded a lot of ground.

Permalink Mark Unread

"The planet looked pretty uncomplicated - as they go. They sent some less experienced teams - they have to start somewhere - and one of them, assigned to Sesat, didn't swap out for replacements when they had a personality conflict. I don't know the envoys who were there personally but I believe there is now a scathing book published about how he was terrible and everything was his fault. I can get you a copy if you like."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Was that all, they decided to never join because that person insulted the Star of Stars personally or something?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think anyone insulted the Star of Stars - although relatedly there was a coup shortly after contact."

Permalink Mark Unread

Which would normally mean they backed the coup to push through their preferred policies but not if Sesat then didn't join. Also that isn't an answer, that's a distraction.

"Would you feel more comfortable having this conversation with someone who has a tattoo."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh no. Okay, maybe it wasn't a personality conflict so much as crosscultural conversations being extremely difficult - I have no idea what I've said that led to you replying in that way."

Permalink Mark Unread

...Plausible, really, his first few years in Azan did feel about this confusing. The last magic people to land on them were practically Azanis, and these people have been emphasizing how they're basically Azan with more power, but.

"My apologies, cross-cultural conversations are one of the hardest things I've ever done. It feels as though you're being evasive, which is understandable, I've been evasive several times in talking with you. I was trying to clarify - it sounds like you were saying Sesat didn't join, for a length of time I've been assuming was at least a few years and not a few decades but I might be assuming wrongly, and you're not hoping they'll join in the future, and it's because a conversation went in a way that could be described as 'a personality conflict' or 'cross-cultural communication difficulties' - at least, I think that's what you said - and if that's what you said then maybe you're worried giving me details will make me as angry as everyone in Sesat must have been. But maybe I have that wrong."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sesat didn't join because they didn't like us. They still haven't and still don't. I've seen forecasts of three to four generations before they put it to a vote again. I think they found it extremely insulting that getting even carefully exactly-worded lip service for their treatment of slaves, which seemed of utmost importance to the movers and shakers of Sesat, required being very overt and direct and it was impossible to instead rely on subtext and avoid losing face. I think they felt threatened and when it became adequately clear that the threat would not manifest in genuine violence chose distancing themselves from Vanda Nossëo as the dignity-preserving option. And someone decided to stage a coup and, for some reason, subsequently... export... the previous Star of Stars to a world in our sister organization Elendil where it remains possible to meaningfully own slaves because there is a domesticated sapient species that prefers slavery as a lifestyle available on the open market there. I think it took many conversations to get that bad, and that the leader of the envoy team should have bowed out much earlier and let someone else try to rescue the situation. I am willing to answer all of your questions, I don't know any classified information, if I sound evasive it's because I'm not sure how to put something in a way that will be informative across the culture gap or I don't understand the relevance of the answer to you such that I can pick out a useful response out of the possible topical sentences."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thanks. I could probably get more than you from a public statement by the new Star-of-Stars if there is one, or pick apart diplomats' statements for accidental subtext, but I'm mostly trying to figure out if this is - something that will matter to the Sesatis living in Azan, something that ought to matter to everyone in Azan but was easier for Sesatis to notice, something where that thing you keep doing where you disavow the diplomats involved every time it comes up will be important to letting everyone decide it's a stupid fight other people are having that we don't have to get involved in, or something that basically only matters to one guy who doesn't have that much power or might be dead. If it was about slavery we - I don't know if you'll decide we still have slavery or not, it probably depends on how your translation works, but at any rate I think it's not something that would be very disruptive to get rid of."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do you have anyone who would be prohibited by the licit use of force from walking up to me and asking me to teleport them to another planet, never to return?"

(Zua pulls up a search for public statements by the new Star-of-Stars to show him.)

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not in the way you mean. Azan doesn't currently have anyone enslaved, but it would be legal if it came up in the future under certain circumstances, and then there isn't technically a law against leaving the country so much as them being confined somewhere specific and not allowed in the parts of the country between them and the border. Also, we're in an interior courtyard of the palace, and while there are procedures in place to escalate complaints from literally anyone to Azan she, that doesn't actually mean just anyone can wander any part of the palace grounds at any time. But if there were such people and they left with you we wouldn't ask an Azani teleporter to hunt them down."

And he'll look at whatever Zua finds...

Permalink Mark Unread

So the most immediately notable thing about this video is that the new Star-of-Stars is an alt of someone Valan knew once.

He's furious, almost vibrating with it, explaining that it is possible to grow greater than Sesat ever realized, that Vanda Nossëo has that potential with their magic and technology, and that they are squandering it in favor of constructing a society of docile sheep as fat as any king and as cowed as any slave. Sesat will grow as rich as Vanda Nossëo - its people can already wake the dead; its people will soon be able to make jewelry that produces flameless light, or that grants immortality; Sesat has seen its last famine and its last plague no matter what happens next.

Vanda Nossëo is as rich now as Sesat will be in six months and if you strip away the temporary disparity in wealth and look at what they do - in Vanda Nossëo they maim people who get drunk and commit manslaughter. Like Azan. They do it with mental editing, so they don't have to look at what they've done, which is important because they're squeamish. Sesat has been coming to recognize that no person, king or serf, ever deserves that.

To join Vanda Nossëo would mean making this bargain: that any time one of their young men gets too deep in his cups and starts a fight, they give him up to be maimed and kept apart from society, in exchange for which they would all have enough food.

Vanda Nossëo's leadership staked their honor on their boasts that they would not annex Sesat until all the people of Sesat united in begging them to. They'll keep their word. They won't even be closing their stores. So even were there any in Sesat so contemptible as to want to take them up on their offer, it would hardly matter. Nothing is lost by turning them down.

He does, in the end, smirk about that.

Permalink Mark Unread

If he'd known going into it what that was going to be he'd have watched it first in private, or with Dama or Maki. He doesn't immediately have anything to say about it.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wow," says Melda, blinking at the video when it concludes.

"Oh, that's what the Allspeak update about maiming was for?" says Shila.

Permalink Mark Unread

What the fuck is he supposed to say to that.

He had better say something. It's - in keeping with who he once thought Feris was, to care about that. And it's genuinely an attitude more characteristic of Sesat than Azan. And the idea of mental editing is deeply disconcerting. And it's - everything he ever liked about Sesat.

And after the old Star-of-Stars had them imprisoned it took months for Maki's hand to stop shaking, nearly a year for Valan to walk, years for Maki to speak.

He's not going to bring any of that up with these strangers but there's a long pause while he gets past that to think of literally anything appropriate to say.

"Not what you were expecting?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'd read a transcript but this is remarkably - fiery. I suppose I should have expected it," says Melda.

Permalink Mark Unread

"...So is he describing something you'd describe differently or just lying?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The first thing. - well, I don't think every case of drunken manslaughter has that outcome, that varies locally."

Permalink Mark Unread

"How would you describe it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Can you narrow it down or do you just want me to translate the entire speech into Vanda Nossëo affect?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, if the second thing is doable it'd be helpful, but I mostly meant the part about your justice system."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Mental alteration is never a person's only option. Even the most exceptionally dangerous people could instead be, say, dead, and most people could be in prison instead. The forms of it used in that way are very surgically specific and would generally leave the person able to return to everything about their life except for crime, or, usually, an even more specific exception than that. I could go into the history of how this policy came into existence but I don't know if that interests you or if there's something else about it that stuck out?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The history sounds interesting."

Permalink Mark Unread

"A plurality of the individuals working for Vanda Nossëo are humans. There's just a lot of you. But it was founded by, and persists at a high concentration of, my species - Elves," says Melda. "And we have two unique features that probably contributed to this balance of desiderata. One: we cannot be imprisoned. Unless you're literally a god - an evil god - it kills us all by itself, it's so intolerable that we'd kill ourselves rather than let it get to that point, it's just a particularly cruel and inefficient way to kill us. Accordingly, imprisonment has never featured in any Elven conception of justice.

"Two: we can swear binding oaths. With some exceptions that I don't think are relevant to how this played out in the founding, an Elf who can talk can use a slightly particular phrasing and enforce on themselves that what they say is true. If I tried to swear to you that I was a man, or a pineapple, or dead, I just wouldn't be able to get the words out; if I swore to you that I was going to get that way, I'd do it, I'd have to, it would happen without stopping to check along the way past my saying so if I wanted to or if circumstances had changed. I could dawdle, maybe, but not quit. This has all the nightmarish potential you'd expect and then some, of course, but unlike imprisonment it's not unthinkable. It did play a role in the development of the Elven conception of justice. If someone has, say, struck a child, or destroyed a neighbor's sculpture, or otherwise committed the sort of minor misbehavior that's all you get in a typical century of a monospecies Elf community? Well, that's terrible, of course, but it doesn't mean they can't be among us - they just have to swear that they won't do it again."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I can see how if your species founded a society that worked for you and then went looking for the most miserable humans you could find and let them join if they were willing to have a democratic vote about it you would end up with the thing you've apparently ended up with. Except that I didn't understand the relevance of your problem with imprisonment."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That... wasn't the trajectory but I agree it could have had the same result. So, another founding and ongoing pressure in the top levels of Vanda Nossëo is a particular personality template - it has sounded like you're aware of the same phenomenon here, people who are the same across worlds and may or may not look alike. This template, 'Bells', actually hates invasive mind magic of all sorts, it's a very reliable and strong feature they have. And none of them are Elves. Most of them come from societies where some sort of imprisonment, not oaths or anything like them, is the default response to crime too serious to handle with scoldings and fines. - Elves alone don't do fines in most worlds where we exist because in most worlds where we exist we wind up doing central planning or a gift economy rather than currency, though my specific world is economically unusual. So you have some Elves, and you have some Bells, and they're pulling at each other, one side barely able to wrap their minds around the concept of a 'humane prison', the other so suspicious of mind control that the first thing every one of them does on meeting telepaths is demand to know how to make them stop. But both of them able to agree on letting the prisoners decide, in cases where either option suffices to make other people safe from them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And the societies you know of where they do remotely normal human things would mostly be better off doing things your way, because as lovely humanitarians you went looking for desperately poor people who would be better off doing things your way and don't need to have anything to do with anyone else?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I can't tell if that's your sincere best guess, a sarcastic way of describing your best guess that you are expecting to somehow highlight for me something you found inadequate about my explanation...?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It seems very strange to me that you find yourselves deciding between two punishments no country I've ever been in has made much use of, especially when you have magic that can make sure if you go too far with a whipping you can always fix it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Frankly, that is because your planet is very poor and very low-tech."

Permalink Mark Unread

He is not going to be goaded into revealing what he thinks of as the technology they have that best refutes that claim. What if he says "we have electricity!" and they've replaced electricity with politely asking clouds to do all the work on their entire planet and don't even need to make copper wire? ...What if he already has tipped his hand by saying they could use copper wire? Maybe if you use gold wire you can make cooler electricity that does twice as many things.

"We haven't had some of our cool stuff long enough to have seen all the changes it'll bring but I do admit I'm not immediately seeing why that in particular would change."

Permalink Mark Unread

"One of the things people buy with slack and luxury is being more humane towards criminals. If their labor is less essential to the economy, if the security measures people need to feel safe from them are commonly available, if feeding them is cheap, if there are social scientists willing to take data about whether they can stop doing crime and live normal lives and what made them do crime in the first place, if people are using their larger amounts of free time to think about moral philosophy and try to apply their principles to politics, that all gradually pushes away from permanent and violent punishments and toward rehabilitative and preventative strategies. This isn't a guarantee, but it's definitely a trend and particularly holds among humans."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I don't disbelieve the claims you just made but they don't sound related to the claims you made before them - for context, Azan uses execution, public whipping, public display in general, henna marking, fines, and obviously sometimes strips people of rank and associated marks. I'm not entirely sure which of those you consider more violent or less humane than what you do."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So, in Vanda Nossëo the overwhelming majority of criminal punishments come with an alternative of exile, because it's illegal to stop people from leaving if you're not very sure they're just going to find an uncontacted planet and start murdering people on it. Any of those things except the first two would be fine, even in a member state, with the alternative of exile available, and depending on the details even the first two aren't necessarily off the table."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Depending on what details?"

There's something that's still confusing here, like he's making an assumption that isn't true, but he's not sure which assumption it might be.

Permalink Mark Unread

"If there were, say, a religious belief among the criminals themselves that being whipped or killed would meaningfully expiate their guilt, and they preferred that to moving to another country, then that could be implemented as an exception to the usual rules against killing and torturing people. Most localities just omit those criminal penalties across the board but we're much more absolute about having to let people leave."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't think I'm getting less confused, do you want to walk me through concrete examples or just circle back to this topic later when we have more shared context?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure how I'd even pick an illuminating example, I'm sorry."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, in the mean time, I imagine you'll want to set up trade and travel regardless. Do we need to discuss travel beyond figuring out a good place for people to teleport to and from?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Usually intraplanetary busses just fly, so if you want service to Niazon and so on, someplace suitable for a flying busport will also be useful! But yeah, it's not very complicated beyond finding an available parcel."

Permalink Mark Unread

Hmm. Missed the implication that Azan already has teleportation and blueprints for internal combustion engines, or figured out how limited Azan's access to those things is?

"Niazon's not exactly far away but it's possible we won't have the spare teleportation capacity for trips to the other side of the world any sooner than you could set up flights. As an aside, I'm not used to people calling flying things buses, in my experience people only call ground vehicles buses."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a genericized brand name, 'Airbus'."

Permalink Mark Unread

Is he supposed to know what a brand name is. Is this a trap. "I can see how a flying thing that does what buses do would end up with that name."

Permalink Mark Unread

At some point when they've talked for a while he suggests that maybe someone could go visit their worlds and see what they're like.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Absolutely! Are you imagining more of a guided tour or do you just want a few people to be turned loose in a bus station with an Allspeak installation?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...An Allspeak installation?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Our standard translation magic. It's free."

Permalink Mark Unread

Apparently their form of teleportation doesn't just have language-learning as a mysterious side effect. He neglects to explain that Adrian's works that way.

"Sounds useful. How does it interact with other translation magic?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You know, I'm not sure it's been tried; we've got lots of kinds of telepathy, and nonmagical translation things, but for translation spells per se Allspeak is about it. I believe it can be removed but not by people who only have bus-station levels of knowhow about installing it, so I'd need to get a specialist ready if there's concern about interactions."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't specifically have any reason to expect there to be interactions but I suppose it'd be silly to rely on anyone being able to say that there were interactions, huh?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Quite! So probably we want to prepare whoever goes first to have Allspeak put on and taken off again and then see how they're doing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not sure we should expect that to tell us what to expect going forward, but it's not a bad idea."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is there an obvious candidate subject to try this with who already has your translation magic?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, the thing is, that depends. Does Adrian have translation magic? Do people from Emika have translation magic? Apparently it's not people who travel to other worlds, and maybe it's not people who travel to Azan from other worlds, though conceivably they wouldn't have noticed if it's totally redundant with Allspeak. Are the people who learn languages by magic the ones with the magic, or the ones whose language is learned? It's probably not the Azani language or they'd have noticed already, right?

"I don't know if it inheres in people or works some other way. The magic that brought it about is new and dangerous to test. We could ask Val to go first but I don't actually know if that'd be more informative than any randomly selected person."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Val?" inquires Melda.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Val learned Azani by magic after coming here. Whereas I barely travel and don't speak anything besides Azani and Sesati, and arguably that's not even two languages."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh, and he doesn't know how he did it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not unless you count 'by magic', or if he does he's not telling."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Can you introduce us? If there's going to be challenging magic interactions better to find out sooner than later."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, one moment." He'll step into a hallway and retrieve Val. (They sent word to Val and Jamie, among others, while he was talking strategy with Azan she. Otherwise this wouldn't be nearly so convenient.)

Val looks less like Valan than most Sesatis do, and he isn't built like Valan, and he doesn't even hold himself like Valan. There are some similarities in their expressions but not to the extent that it's notable just yet.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hello!" Melda says, and she introduces herself and her colleagues again.

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's nice to meet you. I'm Val Renaud." That's not even structured like an Azani name. "I hear you're concerned about whether your language magic has side effects and want me to test it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not side effects exactly, its straightforward behavior is pretty well understood! We're just not sure how to expect it to interact with other translation magic, like what we understand you to have - can you tell us more about that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure! I learned Azani when I moved here. I don't seem to have any less ability to express myself and I don't have any more trouble with background noise than if I'd grown up with it, I think. It is Azani and not Sesati, though I can understand Sesati the same way as everyone who speaks Azani can."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Did you do that on purpose? Does it work for cultural idioms?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Shrug. "Well, I didn't expect it to happen, but it was more of a 'let's try this and see what happens' sort of situation than a 'minding our own business not wanting anything to happen' sort of situation. What do you mean by cultural idioms?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Things like saying that someone is the creditor who owns you, or 'if Laen were kind'."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I understand those - I don't remember hearing the second one before I knew enough to put it together but I do just magically know the first."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Neat, Allspeak is actually pretty bad at that without manual patching. Are you willing to test having Allspeak put on you and then taken off again, to make sure it works all right? If you're nervous we can get a precog on standby."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Sure. You have precogs?" Oh shit they have precogs.

Permalink Mark Unread

"A few. They don't work outside their universes but one kind of them can work on information transmitted to their universe from outside of it, so we can get some questions queued up for them." She sets this up on her computer.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Interesting. Nice computer, by the way, how much RAM can you fit in that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think it doesn't work on RAM but I admit I've never asked."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh, I don't really know enough about computers to know if I should be surprised by that. Well, you can do your magic whenever you're ready, I guess."

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda takes a picture of a nearby wall, says, "The Allspeak installer who knows how to deinstall too will be along in just a moment," and then, lo and behold, a person, one who is eight feet tall and blue. "Morning," he says.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wow, are you human? Is that rude? It's not morning in this time zone but hi."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's not? Ugh, I hate time zones. I'm not a human, I'm a frost giant, is that important?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Only to whether I could be that tall if I wanted. Oh, well."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Depends how bad you want it?" Shrug. "I am here to install Allspeak on you and then, for experimental purposes, remove it, and then, if you want it back, reinstall it. Can you confirm that this is what you want and expect?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"If I had really strong expectations about it I don't know that we'd need to do any tests but I guess that's what I expect."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, no, that means, do you want and expect this plan of action, not do you have firm beliefs about what's going to happen if I go about it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, go ahead."

Permalink Mark Unread

The frost giant bops him on the head with the Allspeak wand.

Permalink Mark Unread

"How am I supposed to tell if anything happened?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, can you understand me still now?" asks the frost giant.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think you just asked if I can understand you, and I think the answer is yes, but if you actually asked what my favorite color is then something has gone wrong."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's what he asked," Melda confirms. "- I actually speak Azani and am not using translation magic for it, to be clear."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It could be constructing an elaborate lie about you speaking Azani but I bet not. Anyway, go ahead and uninstall it or however this works."

Permalink Mark Unread

Bop!

Permalink Mark Unread

"So what conversation did we have from your end?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda repeats it.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, it doesn't seem like it went badly. So far."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do you want it back?" asks the frost giant.

Permalink Mark Unread

Shrug. "It doesn't seem like there's much reason to say no?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Bop!

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thanks. Is that typically free or just when you're testing it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, it's always free, it's just much less hassle for everybody if anyone who wants Allspeak has it and there's fewer miscommunications all around. Plus it takes like fifteen minutes to learn how to use one of these and Vanda Nossëo's economy is like a million times the size of the backwater that produces 'em."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. At some point I'd be very curious to learn more about that, though I imagine now's not a good time."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, we didn't know how complicated this was gonna get, I budgeted an hour, but if you're busy I can fuck off and play Snowflake Poem till somebody else needs the Allspeak specialist."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm not, I just figured you would be."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure. You want to learn to use a wand or you want me to diss Asgard some more or what?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Can I get both?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You got it. So if you've seen one of the envoys - which of you has Princess Beldri's -" Melda raises her hand. "Her, if you've seen her teleport, that's a spell that's made of a few hundred million letters in a magic alphabet. The only person who can use the magic alphabet is the princess of my planet Jotunheim, Princess Beldri. Everybody else who uses the same magic works with giant chunks of magic alphabet, like whole chapters' worth, and their spells are clunkier. Allspeak's made that way, mostly by folks from this planet called Asgard. They're assholes, they were at war with us since forever and also kidnapped Princess Beldri when she was a baby and raised her thinking she was one of them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh, that's..." He pauses contemplatively for a bit. "Wait, wait, do you mean they thought she was one of them or she thought she was one of them?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think everybody except the Asgardian queen who kidnapped her thought she was one of them, did some magic to make her look like one most of the time."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wow! That's fucked up." He wasn't going to say that next but it seems like the only reasonable response. "And somehow she does magic at a finer granularity than anyone else?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, not because of that though, she touched a magic thing when she was a kid. Usually it just kills people who do that."

Permalink Mark Unread

He contemplates this for a while. "Do a lot of other people try?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Nah. Most people it doesn't kill it also doesn't do anything particularly neat for. It or the other ones like it, there's - six? I think it's six."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So can I get a ride to go touch all six or a subset thereof?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think some of them are held by hostile governments? And you probably can't get the one the Princess has, she keeps it on her and has famous-person levels of you don't get to meet her in person usually. Maybe there's one you can go pat if you sign enough waivers that it's nobody's fault if it explodes you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hmmmmm." More contemplating. If she makes exceptions she probably does it on the basis of precognition about what people will do. He can extract... weak evidence, not proof of anything... if he commits to using any magic he might get as a result in some particular way. He picks off of body language he expects to differ between instances of this conversation (which he supposes this is obviously not the only instance of). If he gets cool magic out of this he'll try to use it to make Azan richer and more powerful. "I'm surprised by that since I expect most of the reason for it is concerns about assassination attempts and I would expect she could just foresee that I'm not going to do that. But I don't have any reason to prefer to try to tackle that first if there's another one I could try."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, she's not super worried about assassination attempts but probably she's any worried? There's a lot of bullshit out there. But mostly it's just that there's trillions of people and if feeling like it was a good reason to bug somebody trillions of people know about was good enough to get a meeting, they would instantly suffocate probably."

Permalink Mark Unread

He has magic from a process that kills most people instead of giving them powers. It isn't something people just happen to feel like.

There's really no benefit to tipping them off when they slip up. But he can't think of a reasonable and on-topic response that doesn't. He shrugs. "I guess. Anyway, you mentioned you were at war with some kidnappers?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Not anymore - or, I guess technically we might be in a state of declared war that is presently ceasefiring? We joined Vanda Nossëo and they didn't."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They don't want to pick a fight with Vanda Nossëo and Vanda Nossëo doesn't want to pick a fight with them either?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Princess Beldri gets along with her adopted sister pretty well, but their queen still sucks, is how I heard it? So Vanda Nossëo protects us so they won't try anything and we're just sorta waiting for the Asgardian princess to inherit."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Makes sense. And, hm. You mentioned I could learn to give other people the translation magic?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure, they hire tons of people to do it at bus stations and stuff."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do I have to agree to work at a bus station to learn?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, that's just an example. - you will probably have to pay for a class if you don't want to do it under a scheme where you agree to take some kind of job and pay your financer? But they're cheap as magic classes go."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't know what we'll do about currency conversion but I can probably trade work, I just don't know if working at a bus stop would be the fastest way to pay it off. Anyway, how do I arrange that and check up on the availability of your dangerous magic things?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You want the internet. Internet's fantastic."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't own a computer, I didn't get to pack that kind of thing when I moved here."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, you should get one, then, the fancy kind works on humans so you can get a nicer one than I have."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You keep recommending courses of action that involve already having opened up some channel for interacting with your society in response to my questions about how to interact with your society."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The envoys can probably get you one installed?"

Melda nods.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thanks. 'Installed'?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The kind of computer he's referring to involves a chip in the user's brain," says Melda. "It works on humans and Elves and orcs; research is underway on other species' brain anatomy. Then you can control the computer with your thoughts, which also encrypts the contents of the device. No other kind of computer is fully proof against conjuration, though there are ways to make it inconvenient."

Permalink Mark Unread

He has questions and the answers spawn more questions and - he doesn’t want brain surgery but this probably isn’t the first time this has happened, it’s probably their thousandth prophecy about this day and if he turned them down the first time then they probably read his mind anyway and had their seer write everything down. When this happens for real he’ll consent, because something could convince him to and they have mind-reading and a million tries to get him to do whatever they want.

So... fine. Getting a new computer is obviously the most convenient thing to do and whatever seems convenient is probably what they want from him. He wouldn’t rather they trick him into thinking he wants it. He’ll get a horrible brain computer and investigate their internet.

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda wants to check if anyone else would like chiplock computers in the same trip, to save the shipboard demon time.

Permalink Mark Unread

Not Valan, anyway. Vida would but everyone’s doing their best to keep Vida away from these people. They can probably find quite a few interested people around town, though, including the page with fox ears.

Permalink Mark Unread

As long as his brain is still totally normal and human he can safely get a chiplock even if he is planning to go morph a fox later, though people who routinely morph often go with a thoughtspeak-based computing solution.

Permalink Mark Unread

...He might want to morph a lot but he also wants a computer today.

Permalink Mark Unread

Computers for all! A brief training montage! And back to our regularly scheduled diplomacy.

Permalink Mark Unread

Yeah.

"I'm not demanding it but if you would give your word that you aren’t, haven't, won’t, and wouldn’t ever use prophecy or intentionally cooperate with the use of prophecy or mind-reading to extract information or cooperation without regard for honesty or the wellbeing of the people you’d be getting those things from it’d be nice."

Permalink Mark Unread

"To my knowledge," says Melda, "Vanda Nossëo policy for everyone you will by default be invited to interact with - who works for them in a diplomatic capacity, this doesn't apply to the cafeteria staff on the ship or to people who have private sector work - forbids lying. More broadly Vanda Nossëo law forbids nonconsensual mind-reading or mind-altering magic any more invasive than facial recognition or communicative telepathy outside designated areas of which this planet has none, forbids attacking you in most cases sometimes up to and including in self-defense, and instructs us to assume that if we receive contradictory orders it's a red-team exercise or actual infiltration which we should report to our supervisors however many layers up seems called for. If you would like you may speak to someone who is sworn to never act on nor reveal anything you tell them so as to be able to get advice on sensitive situations without the pressure of other agents pursuing other goals on the basis of your information. My reports do get passed up and used to inform a summary delivered to an allied precog but I am not receiving or acting on instructions detailed enough to be an attempt to path you through anything complicated and when I have in the past received precognition-aided instructions they were about averting deaths or disasters, not about extracting cooperation. All of that is accurate to the best of my knowledge, I so swear."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thank you. I would also appreciate more information about - so, I’ve been assuming, apparently correctly, that you’re having someone check up on this conversation, and I’m aware of things. And I don’t mind spending extra time chatting in this garden, as long as it’s just for things like making sure you don’t accidentally give us all a horrible alien plague or the other way around, but if it were a different time or a different person..." Shrug. "But maybe that’s silly and prophecies don’t really happen?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I haven't made a report yet, although I believe Zua's written in about your having a local alt -?"

Zua nods.

"But since I will make a report later that would hardly prevent a precog from letting us know if you get, yes, a horrible alien plague that I can't just cure on the spot without issue. I'm - not really sure I followed what you just said."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean... do the precogs go into a real future or is it more like a dream about people who aren’t really there?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"The way they experience it varies by precog but my understanding is that it's more like a dream about people who aren't really there than like time travel. We do have a time traveler but she only works in her neighborhood."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I see. Anyway, we were going to tour your worlds? I want to check if I end up understanding people there without Allspeak."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure! Do you want to narrow it down any or should I just pick out a sampler?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, there’s no point in using the trip to try to verify their honesty, so it’s really only useful for trying to understand things that aren’t clear. Or for entertainment.

"Whatever you think will be most enlightening."

Permalink Mark Unread

"All right. Whenever you're ready. Zua, can you manage things here while I'm touring?"

"Sure thing."

Permalink Mark Unread

He’ll just pass the job of talking to Zua on to some other Azani official and then they can leave whenever.

Permalink Mark Unread

A series of pops, and:

They are on Beach, on, appropriately enough, a beach. There aren't many buildings; there are a lot of shorefolk fishing and flying and building sandcastles and grooming each other's feathers and napping. The most architecture there is to be had is a narrow shed with a shower spigot on one side.

"They don't like buildings much, around here," says Melda. "They can control the weather, and they were Stone Age when first discovered, and they don't have much need for privacy. So they live outdoors. Their language is sung through - did you wind up getting it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don’t know anything about it that you didn’t just tell me but I don’t think anyone noticed speaking Azani till they tried talking to someone."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, you can go ahead and try introducing yourself to someone. They're a pretty friendly lot."

Permalink Mark Unread

He’ll flag down whoever looks like they’re doing the most droppable thing and say hello.

Permalink Mark Unread

This one is combing sand out of her hair with her claws. She chirps at him with a sunny smile.

Permalink Mark Unread

He has no idea what if anything that chirp means. "Just testing something," he says, shrugging.

Permalink Mark Unread

She giggles.

"No luck?" asks Melda. "She just said hello."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. I can’t explain myself until I get magic for it but you can, I guess, if you think she minds."

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda says, in a fashion perfectly comprehensible to Valan, "He's checking a translation theory!"

The shorefolk giggles and whistles and waves at him and goes back to combing her hair.

"Do you want to hit someplace where we can get you Allspeak next?" Melda asks.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah."

Permalink Mark Unread

Pop pop.

It's a shining towering city, achingly beautiful in every curve and sparkle, full of Elves like Melda, woven through with parkland and water features.

"This is my world," she says. "It's called 'space Arda', conventionally, even though that's not a very pretty name, because most Ardas are lower tech and everyone in them stays on one planet."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We haven’t had nearly enough time to make Azan look like that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Human cities often don't even given lots of time! It's pretty high-maintenance and there's competing priorities - humans often need various safety signage in bright neon colors that clash with everything around them to stand out enough to human vision, for example. But I like it here." She flicks her fingers through some fountaining water. "Allspeak's that way." She sets off through the foot traffic.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don’t think I’ve noticed humans needing that." He follows.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, need under the most commonly preferred risk management polices. We can hit a human city after this."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Sure. Are you planning on pointing out anything you think would call for a neon warning sign?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'll notice in plenty of time if it looks like you're about to wander somewhere dangerous but your own caution around heights will most likely do the trick, a lot of the safety stuff is for kids and their parents, pets and pet owners."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In my experience animals and children young enough not to notice that heights can be dangerous couldn't read and the point of adult supervision is that they already know things like that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm probably not explaining it well, I don't have human children - or any children at all. Maybe there will be illustrative examples at our next stop."

Allspeak kiosk. Bop.

Permalink Mark Unread

Shrug. He’ll keep an eye out.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Anything here you want a closer look at or shall we move on?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"We can move on."

Permalink Mark Unread

Pop pop.

"This is a human city. The world is Revelation and the city's called Bangalore. This world was pretty advanced when we found them already because they can summon people from adjacent worlds with very useful magical powers - those aren't humans exactly but they're psychologically alike and some of them used to be humans."

Permalink Mark Unread

Relatable, he doesn’t say.

He looks for neon warnings and tries to judge the tech level and see how electricity gets used when there’s enough of it to do anything anyone might want with it and they’ve had a long time to come up with new things to want to use it for.

Permalink Mark Unread

There's a bright orange traffic cone marking a spot in the sidewalk that has been peeled open for plumbers to do things, and a truck the back end of which has a CAUTION - WIDE TURNS sign with a little picture, and nobody has coordinated the traffic lights or the car's lights to look nice together at all. But the buildings are tall and there are street food carts and people with wings and must-be-electric bicycles and little hovering drones doing photography or carrying packages and busy shops nobody has to staff and shady trees full of birds whose poop is being busily scrubbed by little robots that shuffle along the ground.

Permalink Mark Unread

Blind people could use a warning about the pit but they couldn’t use that warning. Maybe when Azan starts needing to do that kind of maintenance on their power and water they should play music.

...He really, really wants a fleet of electric street sweepers.

"And all of them have a tendency to fall into pits?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think the cone by the pit is there so if people are reading something while they walk, or can see high contrast things but not detail, or are going fast, have enough time to go around it? It might also be helping the robots navigate."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That’s... huh, that does make sense. I thought people wanting to be blind was a weird Azan thing but you did already tell me Vanda Nossëo was basically Azan in space so maybe I should’ve guessed. And your robots navigate differently?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"People wanting to be blind is weird but there are a lot of people. And our robots navigate in some of the same ways but since we don't want orange cones around we have to invest in making sure they can avoid falling in maintenance holes in other ways. You can get little objects that send out a signal that robots know to steer around. It might be humans don't like those because they can't tell if they're working easily? We can ping them with the chips in our heads. Not like the one for the chiplock computer, my kind of Elf is born with chips."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. Weird. And the computers can't be used for that, or it's just more convenient for you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Computers can't talk to arbitrary other computers; in a space Elf society we can standardize all our devices to talk to the kind we're all born with but humans don't have that option."

Permalink Mark Unread

That doesn’t sound right but he doesn’t know enough about computers to dispute it. "If I’d been in Sesat more than twice in the last five years this would have subtext but I haven’t and it doesn’t - I get the impression you’d like Sesati architecture better than Azani?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I do, actually, though of human architectural I like medieval Islamic best."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I haven’t seen that kind yet. Anyway, what is there around here that I shouldn’t miss?"

Permalink Mark Unread

She can take him on a little tour of Bangalore and buy him a souvenir if anything catches his eye.

Permalink Mark Unread

Well, he wouldn't turn down jewelry made of cool high-tech metals like steel, if it's on offer. Azan doesn't have the steel going spare for that sort of thing and there are people who'll look at it and see ideas for how to make not-very-familiar metals behave.

(Also, caring about jewelry seems like it will play well with aliens who are obsessed with aesthetics.)

Permalink Mark Unread

She'll buy him a neat steel necklace with anodized colors all over it and little loose pieces inside larger partial enclosures with holes in so you can see them.

Permalink Mark Unread

Fancy!

"How do they get it to look like that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Good question, I have no idea if this was handmade or printed or conjured or what." She asks the vendor, who says the jewelry like that is conjured but she anodizes it herself at home so they're all unique.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I know how to make jewelry but it was the bronze age when I learned."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There'd actually be a market for that, you can charge extra for things being handmade and authentic, but a lot of handcrafts are from a purely practical perspective obsolete in the broader multiverse," apologizes Melda. "The good news is that most people have plenty to spend on being impractical."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's jewelry, it wasn't practical to begin with. It's just to make all that practical stuff worth doing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It can be practical! Metal jewelry can be enchanted, and at some Elf establishments you'll be dress coded out of the place if you aren't dressed up enough. But yes, I agree with the sentiment."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You know, in Azan they think it's very silly, dressing up. But I guess you probably noticed that." It's not the only reason the royal family generally wears undyed work clothes, of course. But some of it is showing off that they don't need to show off.

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a sympathetic belief for Bronze Age humans to wind up with. It just doesn't work for Elves. Our tolerances vary but we need beauty like humans need sleep. - we do also sleep, but less, and suffer less from skipping it, and my understanding is that it's the closest comparison."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you don't sleep for long enough you'll fall asleep or die, I think. Whereas there's - nothing to protect a human from going months or years without beauty. I wish I needed beauty like I need sleep."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You're not the first person to say that!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"There are how many people out there? I don’t expect to be original."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You're not even the first person to say it to me specifically. There's something appealing about having a non-negotiable excuse for luxury."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think putting it that way doesn't really account for the difference between something like owning jewelry and something like seeing the sky."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In some circumstances seeing the sky can become a luxury, too." She looks up at the sky; it's sunny blue, not a cloud.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure. But if you call them the same thing you lose the ability to easily distinguish the Azani thing where the king doesn't wear anything fancy as a visible signal of a philosophy where they prioritize the health of ordinary peasants, from the thing that happens when people are very angry and not at all accountable for their actions where they lock you in a sunless dungeon and cut your tongue out if you try to entertain the other prisoners."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm... not actually sure I see the connection you're drawing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You can say of either situation that it just means going without luxuries since it's not like you won't survive either way. But the Azani thing is harmless silliness at worst, because it doesn't involve anything that really weakens humans, not if they can live in a palace with servants and a garden and enough food to never go hungry. Whereas humans can technically survive being prisoners, but it does weaken people - yesterday I would have said sometimes it weakens people beyond any healing in this life but I'm learning a lot of things today."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's another thing Elves can't do. Survive being prisoners. Humans are more robust than us in some ways. But it's better not to need to be."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...You know, I know you say you have lots of humans, and I can see that you have at least some, but you keep saying things about your culture that seem badly suited for humans, and then you tell me things about your species and it all makes sense, except for the part where humans with other options want in on it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, humans do different things with the same resources," she says, gesturing around at Bangalore. "The species differences are why most people don't live in highly integrated cities. Even when we get along fine and can go anywhere we like, the average differences will tend to push like to like. What would you want, if you could build anything and live in it forever?"

Permalink Mark Unread

The Sesat he used to believe in, but with elven skyscrapers and universal measles vaccination.

"Okay, bear with me, this will turn into an answer eventually. I haven't really tried to explain to a multiversal audience before. In between the two halves of the war, when I'd done as much as I could and was waiting for Dama to do her part, I - prayed. A lot. In Sesat it's said that the gods talk to living people sometimes, though of course in Azan it's said that Sesatis are all a bit mad, so who's to say whether they really spoke to me." He shrugs. "But I saw that if I was ever free again, I had to explain to people how angry chattel slavery makes them, and that it was - overreaching, trying to make chattel slaves out of so many brave people, that finally brought Sesat down. That once you look straight at it, a chattel slave is like a leper, a slave is something wrong and broken and dangerous, and the world shouldn't have anything like that in it - when it’s not just someone laying low and waiting to murder their so-called owner. It’s just, when you think about it, good people are good. If a criminal is too dangerous or too horrible to live with, stripping them of whatever is left of their honor won't help. And if you're not dealing with a criminal, if it's just some foreigner you've conquered - if they understand what you want with them, they'll die if they have any honor, and so you'll only have robbed the world of them and their honor. And with children - we all know it's not in the blood, it's in the upbringing. Enslaving an infant is like cutting their feet off. Yeah, there isn't and won't be a whole adult who could become a warrior, but maybe there could have been.

"And, while I'm on my slavery rant, as a complete tangent, chattel slaves are animals, and, you know, sheep have no honor either but we can still treat them with kindness. But that's a tangent. Anyway. There are - smaller losses, when people are maimed, or sick, or too hungry to think. Or when they die. It's - better when people are better. No matter what - even if we’re talking about serfs, I’ve never known anyone to brag about how cowardly their serfs were." Not out loud, anyway. "Azan always sort of tried to invest in everyone, but - without really understanding what they should be aiming for. And Sesat understood what it means for someone to have worth but had basically given up, because it wasn’t possible to invest enough in everyone at once. Until we met the multiverse. So I guess what I want to build is a place where everyone is as strong as possible, as brave as possible, as honorable as possible, as educated as possible, and a place that isn’t marred by slavery."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. - the chattel slavery was a huge sticking point with the other Sesat, that and the fact that the background culture of flattery played badly with the fact that envoys aren't supposed to lie."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Not that I'm accusing you of this but - if the war hasn't happened yet and you're still deciding when to make contact, I'm entirely willing to discuss whether you should let the war play out. If there's a chance you wouldn't know you should maybe pass that on just in case."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- if we find another one we can take that under advisement? I think probably the war has been obviated in the other but you can go check yourself."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...That's not what I meant. You should tell your precog in case there's any chance they wouldn't have warned you before looking into the future, even if they'd be going against policy to have done it in the first place."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh. I will do that right now on general principle." She does computer things.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thanks. Not that it seemed likely in the first place, I just thought of it because you got me wondering if just waiting this long made things easier for you compared to when you met the other one. Anyway, why were you wondering what I'd build?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I like to get a sense of what kinds of goals I should be - helping people see a way forward to."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I do see a way forward, I think. I get the impression you arrived expecting to introduce us to modernity and magic and here I am thinking 'do we need more refrigerated transport capacity than we currently have for our vaccination program?' instead of 'you mean we can do something about measles?'"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm still not sure exactly how much you've picked up from your neighbors already!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, how could you be, I've gone out of my way to be cagey. So, let me list a subset of things we're open about. We're familiar with the idea of germs, which we're explaining to anyone who asks. We have magic, including interworld transit, glowing prosthetics that move and feel, electricity, and an unspecified set of offensively useful capabilities which may or may not be limited to teleportation. Our materials science has exited the bronze age and I will not be clarifying how many centuries we've jumped ahead." Apparently the recent advances are better measured in millennia. "A subset of our current projects that we aren't hiding includes reducing the fraction of infants who die before they learn to speak, expanding telecommunications infrastructure across the region, expanding the use of labor-saving artifice, and increasing rural literacy."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Those are all good projects! We'll probably be reaching out to your neighbors directly soon, do you have diplomatic or just informal interpersonal relationships with them?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Let me just clarify something about Emika. The way they treat orphans, and the way they treat the blind and the lame and anyone with any kind of obvious flaw, is so stunningly bad that we’ve been discussing how to work around the population and size disparities in providing a place for refugees to flee to. There are people, maybe as many as half the population but I don’t know for sure because they also have a tendency to murder them, who would be prevented from leaving by the licit use of force. Azan doesn’t talk to them. Azan raids them. If you tell them how to find us and try to recover their people, we will be very annoyed. We would win the fight, of course, but let’s just avoid it instead."

Put like that maybe they haven’t really learned their lesson about overextending themselves taking in refugees after all. But these are magic refugees who taught them to make steel.

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a single polity on their planet or nonplanet-habitation?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. - We didn’t check this in a way resistant to someone trying ten thousand ways to convince us, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...would you feel more comfortable if we went on a tangent about how the precognition we have available works?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, maybe, unless it’s worse than I imagine, in which case no."

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda snorts, but in a delicate Elf way. She finds a café with outdoor seating and gestures him into a chair opposite her and plops down, pokes a button on the table's device to order a chaat sampler. "In the Eclipse world-neighborhood - worlds can be next to each other or not, so in Eclipse itself, and worlds that are next to it - then everybody on a planet with total lunar eclipses, itself astronomically rare but standard on Earths, gets a one in a thousand lifetime chance of becoming an 'eclipsed'. Half are psions and half are mages. Brand new ones are catastrophically dangerous; the process of learning to control their powers involves a couple of years of - improving but intrinsically unappealing conditions. The magic runs on calories. Without additional supportive magic that limits how much they can do in a day to how much they can physically digest. They only work in their neighborhood; if one comes here on vacation their powers just won't function at all. Most psions don't learn precognition. There are a lot of valuable psion skills and that one doesn't even pay the best of them all, though I believe it takes second place. It takes a few years for them to get a handle on a new skill, and precognitive range, which starts at a few seconds, expands only gradually from there. There are a single digit number of psions in existence with ranges of greater than two months. For historical reasons most of those are first and foremost committed to religious organizations that are not deeply integrated with Vanda Nossëo. Using precognition itself takes time, and it doesn't work on any situation that has interacted with another precognition."

Their chaat arrives. She bites into a samosa. "Because it doesn't work remotely, a precog working for Vanda Nossëo is receiving secondhand reports about anything outside the Eclipse neighborhood. Because using precognition takes time - and more time the more decisions the vision conditions on - a precog with a midrange time window cannot path through ten thousand versions of a conversation that is taking place between other people in an out-of-neighborhood world. In practice, we want to use precogs as safety nets for so many operations that most of them are receiving heavily compressed encoded messages alerting them to vehicular accidents, industrial disasters, magical catastrophes, crime sprees, and the like in such dense specialized notation that they don't even know what they are foreseeing. They just see a bunch of letters and numbers and send them on to be decoded and the problems averted. Following so far?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Huh, some of these spices aren't familiar at all. Not that that should be surprising.

"Yeah, I think so. Though I don't know if I should expect it to work the same way if they have it anywhere else."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They have it one other place. Exactly one person in Aurum has it under a different magic system, one that does personality-correlated idiosyncratic powers sometimes. Hers doesn't work with information from outside the neighborhood at all, it gives her headaches to use too much, and some species native to the world can block her vision. There might be more precognition somewhere else, some other world, but you've seemed concerned that we might be dictionary attacking you.

"Now, we do have the option to get precogs to do more intensive modeling than we do for standard safety net purposes, but we need - stakes, to do that. If you're about to reveal to me that you have a doomsday weapon, yeah, then this might turn out to be a precognition that someone goes and averts so we can start over with more focus on that. If you're about to tell me that you recently genocided an oppressed native species with souls that we can't resurrect, that might do it too. If you're going to have awkward conversations with me or be cagey about what technology you've invented or give us helpful warnings about Emika, though, that doesn't rate any exceptional outlay of resources even if you ask for it, let alone if you don't, and getting a precog to work on this full-time for many iterations working out the best way to squeeze you for information is an exceptional outlay of resources."

Permalink Mark Unread

"My most recent comments about that have been caveats about whether I could be wrong about Emika if they have precognition, which is possible since it apparently exists."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Gotcha. I can send up a suggestion that we check on that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Thanks. Anyway, can we get back to - your worlds are lovely and I’m glad to see them, but I get the impression you want something here besides trade or alliance, and you tell me it’s not round five hundred of - a 'dictionary attack'? - and I believe you but I can’t quite figure out what you’re hoping to report happened in this conversation."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So -

"Alts aren't the end-all and be-all of multiversal operations, obviously. But there's a lot we don't understand about the phenomenon yet, and a situation where we've met one of you, you've met another of you, we happen to be directed to you promptly after landing... I'm, let's say superstitious, about that. I want to get off on the right foot, with you specifically for superstitious reasons and through you your people because that's my job. I'm hoping I tell them something like, 'made friends with the local Valan, took him on a tour, got some useful tips about Azan and also Emika', for today, but I'm also hoping that if something wacky comes up in six months and you are somehow key to the whole thing we've established a good working relationship."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - Yeah. I figured it was coincidence, why would I know about unimportant people with alts, and if you have an entire Sesat it’d be weird if there weren’t a lot of the same random serfs, but - Val could’ve ended up in Neza or Iral or Lia, are there three more of us there? Or did he happen to land in the only country on our planet with one of his alts?"

There’s something more that Valan isn’t volunteering yet that isn't an explanation but feels like a clue. Val and Mica and Jamie have interesting alts that they've met, sure. But they were just along for the ride. It was Adrian who teleported them to Azan, Adrian who was looking for somewhere safe for himself. And Adrian's alt was Azan he.

Though it's still weird that Val and Mica and Jamie match anyone. It feels like coincidence that Valan knows any of the rest of the Azani set, and Dama doesn't seem like someone who'd have gotten involved in government affairs if she hadn't been born to it and apparently she could have just not been.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Haven't ever found more than one of a template in a world unless they, say, deliberately forked themselves. So probably there aren't more of you in more countries on your planet. It looks to all accounts exactly like a coincidence, just like it always looks like a coincidence that Bells who appear on Ardas are in a position to meet the Noldor, looks like a coincidence that out of the millions of inhabited planets in Warp the one Bell landed near enough the other to recognize the facial similarity... but it's the kind of coincidence around which important things happen."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That sounds like gods but so did solar eclipses and now they don’t."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I do expect we'll figure it out one day, but... for now it's just a big 'look over here' sign." Shrug.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, we’re looking. - Were you chosen for being likely to get along with me specifically or what?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, we didn't have that much data on who'd be likely to get along with you specifically. I think the Elf on Nelen Utopia's team ultimately came off better than most of his colleagues and they picked an Elf-led team in case that would help but nothing finer granularity than that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hm. That’s surprising, I wouldn’t have guessed you’d get along with Sesatis."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It could have been random noise, but it's what we had to go on."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I suppose. But the way you are is... extremely important, to the point where I’d expect it to overwhelm anything to do with your personality. Maybe not necessarily in a negative way compared to humans who would work for you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Can you elaborate on that at all?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure. So, I'm cautious about how I put this, because there's an obvious set of words to use for it that's already in use for something else that's deeply insulting, and I want to clarify in advance that - you know how, if you have a set of scales, and you put a stone on one side and a feather on the other, the scales will tip to show the stone is heavier basically no matter what size it is, and if you were speaking imprecisely you could say that's because the feather has no weight, but it's an entirely different thing from a soul having no weight? Like, the soul won't fall slower, it's not light, it's a thing you can't weigh at all, right?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- my soul actually weighs about three grams but go on."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Okay, I mean, I know in Emika they say you only have your brain and that weighs something, too, but the - abstract concept of having feelings doesn't and that's all that really matters to the analogy - anyway, in that way, and definitely not in the way that someone speaking imprecisely might say a feather weighs nothing, I notice your species has no honor and might not have any virtue at all."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think that's likely not far wrong under the Sesati conception."

Permalink Mark Unread

Nod. "Okay, so now I'm confused. It's not news to you but you don't quite act like I would expect you to act if you understood, but it's hard to put my finger on why exactly I think you don't quite act that way."

Permalink Mark Unread

"How would you expect me to act?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hmmmm. It seemed like there was something off about the way you talked about that speech, like the way you talked about it suggested you didn't just disagree but actually thought it meant something other than what I though it meant, and then - I thought probably when you asked me what I'd build, we were going to end up circling back to criminal justice, or something, but we didn't, and none of that is very strange but it just feels off. I would have been less surprised by anger or condescension, not that that would have been a winning move. Maybe an explicit acknowledgement that it doesn't sound like Vanda Nossëo is compatible with what I'm hoping Azan will be like someday."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. Sesat was difficult but Azan - on the other world, which I suppose may importantly differ - wasn't."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The country you're dealing with contains about half the people who used to live in Sesat before the war. I am regularly mistaken for a councilmember, probably because I sit in on almost all council meetings and have written substantial sections of Azan's recent treaties. If you caught them before the war but after Feris of Leopard Hill was about as old as he looked in the video, that would have been during the reign of the previous king, and he tended to underestimate the costs of his decisions to people's autonomy and sense of wholeness. Also, not to put too fine a point on it, if you'd wanted to destroy the other Azan they could neither have fought back nor run away."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I wasn't on the team that visited them, so I don't have much way to assess whether those things were factors. What it looked like to us was that Azan was shockingly well aligned for humans in the Bronze Age, and all we had to do was introduce ourselves and catch them up on some social technology and they were ready to step into the multiverse, but of course even if that's a completely accurate high-level summary it'll omit a lot of detail."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Well, maybe I'm wrong about something else. Maybe if you tell me what social technology you caught them up on it'll make sense, or - at one point you offered to give your own version of the speech you showed me and that might also help."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Do you want the version from - Sesat's perspective but with Vanda Nossëo spin, or just the one from our perspective?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Hm. Both?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"From our perspective, something like -

"Sesat's commitment to being a place where everyone in it they think of as a person at all can derive their self-worth from looking down on someone else has won out. Chattel slavery is mercifully over, the victims bought with magic lessons, and the serfs are leaving in droves, so instead they're going to position us as the contemptible outgroup, partly because we don't sympathize with the need for hierarchy and partly because they object on apparently sincere principle to removing magical capabilities from wielders who have proven dangerous. This means a vote to join isn't feasible at least this generation and possibly longer depending on how much the polity evaporatively cools, but fortunately the magic lessons and trade which they're still allowing will alleviate most of the remaining standard humanitarian issues at play. Enter Sesat only at your own risk, as we're not legally able to freely operate there."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Wow. That’s... Sesat has managed to surprise me by being worse than I thought before, so the fact that that model of what it means to care about having some worth as a person sounds totally wrong doesn’t mean it necessarily is. I’d buy the personal sanctity concern as sincere coming from Feris of Leopard Hill, it’s consistent with his books, but it’s surprising to me that he got enough popular support to pull that off."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'd be really interested to hear what it means to have worth as a person in that sense which isn't about having inferiors?"

Permalink Mark Unread

He’s so much more qualified to answer that than he was before the war.

"Sure! So let’s imagine a horrible disaster has left everyone dead except for a man and his six-year-old son. One day there’s a fire. The man could run away really easily, but the child's legs are shorter and the child is closer to the fire to start with. So the man decides whether to just run, or to get closer to the fire so the kid can get on his back. Does it seem to you like that choice tells you something more important about who he is than the choice to hold his bow in his right hand or his left?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Me too. I don’t want to presume that you see exactly the same difference as I do, but the difference I see is that the one who just runs is worth less than the other. That’s related to the son's safety, but even if he misjudged the danger and nothing bad would have happened, he’s still the kind of person who would do that. He is worth something. And it doesn’t matter if someone else has rescued ten children from fires. It starts to look as if it matters when instead of a fire it’s an enemy army, but that’s... not everything in life is war, that’d be a very small life."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So, the leap there, from being the kind of person who would do that to being 'worth something', that's where you kind of lose me. If his son is six months old and has never had the opportunity to do anything of import, his son is still worth something, the way I'd use the phrase - otherwise it wouldn't matter if the father saved him or not, the same way it wouldn't matter if he saved a bit of scrap paper which isn't worth anything. If instead of his son it's a convict he's charged with escorting safely to exile, it still speaks positively to the man's character if he saves his charge even if the convict has done something terrible."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Yyyyyes and Azanis say that, too, so I really should have known better and picked a different idiom. There's a thing that a chattel slave and a pair of magic hands and a jeweled sword have in common, and it's related to the fact that you can sell them for money. There's also a way a chattel slave is different from a sword, something that makes it important not to be cruel to them, no matter how broken they are inside, and that's something that's also present in an infant. But there's a way that a brave man differs from an infant or a coward or a sword or a pair of magic hands. Sesatis mostly describe it as 'having worth', and insofar as we have new names for disambiguating it for Azanis they're all newer than the war, so I didn't figure you'd know them. You'll maybe have heard 'virtue' instead of 'worth'?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Both words have come up - do they mean just the same thing?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"'Virtue' is narrower unless you're from Woodside in which case they do mean the same thing, or Azan in which case the entire underlying philosophy and division of concepts are different. Except when instead 'virtue' isn't being applied to a person at all, then it's different. Also up in Leopard Hill it used to be that they sort of meant the same thing but you heard 'worth' a little more often about men. Of course, Sesati dialects have gotten a little shaken up in the last few years, people have moved around a lot. But anyway, in the extremely narrow context of the thing I just said, they mean the same thing."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Right. So you're culturally interested in people's strength of character - but we are too so I'm still not sure what the difference you're pointing out is."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It hasn’t sounded like it. What actions or policies of yours is that reflected in?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Personal relationships and admiration - I'd never, say, marry someone whose character I didn't respect. And trust with delicate responsibilities and judgment calls."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In what contexts do members of your species have differences in character that would affect their suitability as partners?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Elves are a bit more - uniform, in that respect, than humans are, but one might reasonably prefer a partner who was - more prudent than dramatic, say, or more bold than patient, or more compassionate than exacting, or vice versa on any of the above, even if none of the Elves one rejects on that sort of basis are going to be wicked renegades. And there have been some more serious issues at times; I wouldn't marry someone who'd participated in genociding their world's Dwarves unless they'd very thoroughly repented from that and grown as a person since then."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Couldn't you just ask them to swear not to commit more genocides?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- I mean, that's fine for letting them go about their lives, but I wouldn't marry them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"What would be unpleasant about it, and for that matter why can't you just swear to be satisfactory spouses for each other?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, for one thing we don't treat oaths like that, it's fairly taboo to ask for an oath from someone. I - is this actually important to your understanding here or is it a tangent?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm trying to figure out if you admire people for their virtues or if this is more along the lines of a night owl not wanting to share a bed with a morning person. Also you previously said you employed oaths for things like someone having destroyed a neighbor's sculpture."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We take sculptures pretty seriously. Anyway, yes, we admire and appreciate people for their virtues."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm concerned about walking the tightrope between saying offensive things and not saying enough things to let us come away from this conversation understanding each other and I think I'm going to end up on the former side by saying this but how can you say that and employ mind control."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...do you mean oaths or do you have something else in mind?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It didn’t sound like oaths are only kind you have but yeah."

Permalink Mark Unread

"There are other kinds that exist but they don't see common usage. Anyway, I do not, personally, employ oaths or any other sort of mind control. It's not part of my job and it doesn't have a place in my personal life. Someone who had impulsively destroyed someone else's projects might use an oath to control future impulses and to make sure their neighbors are willing to accept them as a neighbor - someone they can live with, trade with, say hello to in the street - not to make friends or pursue romances."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm very confused now. Do your courts keep records of sentences passed and can I review them?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Among... Elves?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"In Vanda Nossëo in general but sure."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure." She can pull up court records on her computer. Prison sentences, exiles, fines, exile commuted to local alternative, loss of various professional licenses, anger management classes, substance abuse treatment, exile commuted to mental health treatment, loss of child custody, probation, exile commuted to community service - domestic abuse, reckless manslaughter, public health violations, noise ordinance violations, assault, fraud, kidnapping, trespassing, stalking, arson, corruption -

Permalink Mark Unread

Excellent! Now he has concrete questions, which is a huge improvement over the previous state of affairs.

He doesn't mention it but the set of crimes makes him think well of them. All of those things seem bad. They're probably like Azan in that you can get away with calling the king a dumbass, and this is one of his favorite things about Azan.

"I would like to know more about professional licensing, mental health treatment, prison conditions, and what distinguishes community service from unfree labor."

Permalink Mark Unread

"We can visit a prison, if you want. 'Commuted to' means that they would have been exiled but opted to stay in their polity and do the community service instead; they could have quit and left at any time. Mental health treatment varies a lot by mental illness, I'd look up this person for you but I can't access their medical records, they might have wound up with some kind of therapeutic classes or psychiatric medications or subtle arts - again, this is a commuted sentence, they could have just left for anywhere that was fine with people having that kind of record and illness move in. There are some magical powers you need a license to operate and some businesses also require licenses in some places, and abuse of the powers loses the license so you can expect that anyone operating under such a license is responsible with them."

Permalink Mark Unread

" - Which magic powers require a license and what happens if someone wants to visit without having declared all of their powers?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"A lot of magic powers require a license because they're so dangerous - anything you can trivially kill people with, anything that allows mind-controlling other people, if you're born with the powers you can be born with a probationary license but just because some people are born subtle artists doesn't mean they can go around incontinently projecting into people's brains... The powers requiring a license is not particularly local, it's things like license to operate a restaurant that are more like that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I see. And is there a list of such powers, and can you tell me what happens if someone visits without having declared them - actually, can we go back to Azan and then you can tell me?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...sure? Visits where, though -" Pops ensue.

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Oh, for a random example, let’s say Bangalore."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That specific Bangalore, the Revelation one? I don't believe it has special requirements about declaring licensed powers or powers that don't require a license before you go in."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don’t feel like you’re being very forthcoming, what do you think I'm trying to find out?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I have absolutely no idea! I guess maybe you have a magical power you didn't mention and were worried you were in violation of Bangalore law?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay. Without confirming or denying that, if that were true, what information do you think I would need to be able to make decisions about visiting Vanda Nossëo, and why was that information not provided to me before I was invited?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you were not allowed to visit Bangalore, I would be in trouble for it, not you, I chose the place and brought you there."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I see. And if in the future anyone wants to visit one of your worlds without specifically being invited, what will they need to know?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Usually nothing - there are places that screen incoming people but Revelation's not one - look, will it help if I just give you the entire legal code of Bangalore and its encompassing entities, and you can search for thirty decoy terms and also whatever you're worried about here?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure. - I'm not actually trying to disguise my question," though he is trying to glomarize for the people who, unlike him, do have powers, "but I probably have thirty-one real questions about your laws anyway."

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda sends the appropriate messages and gets him a computer with that on it.

Permalink Mark Unread

He would like help figuring out how to search for terms such as "subtle arts" and "teleportation" and "magic licensing" and, while he's at it, yeah actually he does want to skim their tax code and business licensing requirements and how they deal with orphans and the disabled. He'll be at it for a while, intermittently pacing around the palace courtyard in between paragraphs.

Permalink Mark Unread

Totally reasonable of him. Once Melda has gotten him started on the interface she'll go catch up with the rest of her team and give him some privacy.

Permalink Mark Unread

After a while he has some important takeaways. He has some idea how professional licensing works, and it seems like Bangalore deals less badly with orphans than Emika (at least on paper), and he's stunned by just how much state capacity they have and just how many laws they have, and he doesn't want his people to be subjected to laws like these.

(It makes sense, that these people would look at Sesat and decide it was evil for evil's sake and not worth their respect. He accepts that attitude from Dama, who doesn't know which Sesati rapist gave her her daughter, and Maki, whose singing was the last bright thing in the dungeon until his tongue was cut out. They have reasons that relate to real problems with Sesat. But strangers who literally cannot have honor and imagine all Sesati values are about being better than other people, whose own view of the world is so limited they can't even see half of the harm Sesat actually did? Yeah, he feels more comfortable being annoyed with them.)

He flags down a page (not one with fox ears) to go tell Azan she that he does mostly like and sort of trust these people but wants to ask her to keep Azan from joining Vanda Nossëo and will explain more later. And then he'd like to talk with Melda again.

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda can come right back. "I hope that helped," she says.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think I know more now. I'm probably going to ask that we not join Vanda Nossëo; I'm guessing that won't put you at risk but if it will you should tell me so I can try to help."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- no, it won't put me at risk, but I would really like to know why, what are we doing wrong with this region on these planets??"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I used to hope someday I would have a nice country estate with a handful of serfs that I’d get to know well enough to be very good to all of them. The reason that will never happen now isn’t because I did something wrong. The reason my chattel slave doesn’t belong to me anymore also isn’t because I did anything wrong - I helped him rebel against Sesat and never hurt him in private and I only bought him in the first place to protect him from someone worse. I was absolutely perfect at doing right by him. If Azan were weak and afraid, if its people were starving and ill, if we needed to accept foreign masters - I can’t imagine any better than you. I hope we have a thousand years of peace and and a thousand happy marriages between our peoples. I’m glad you came and so will most of Azan be. That being said if you want to hear a poorly considered rant about every way I think your society is bad for humans in general and unfair to Sesati and liable to make Azan's worst traits worse, I can give you that."

Permalink Mark Unread

She sighs. "Yes. Please."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You can’t reliably identify what information I'll find important. You say you care about people’s strength of character but you’re making the same mistake as Sesat, and one similar to a mistake Azan has made in the past, in being so willing to resort to trying to make people weaker. It's - obviously you're not doing it to the same extent as Sesat, but you're still doing it. You still - don't want to accept the costs of other people having the ability to screw you over, I think, and I get it, people can be horrible, there are people whose deaths make me sleep easier. But - not just because they're prone to violence. Some of my best friends are kind of concerningly prone to violence and I still trust them, I just sometimes talk them down from doing anything rash, and I wouldn't want to live somewhere they weren't allowed to have magic just because they're strong and passionate and not necessarily prone to overthinking things. They wouldn't stop being kind of concerningly prone to violence, though of course you could just directly edit them into the kind of people you like better - that strikes me as disrespectful to do, by the way - but aside from that, they wouldn't be better, they'd just be less. Not - not as much less as if Sesat had its way with them, but less. It's - you know what you should hear? The stuff I yelled Azan he the first time we talked about what his plans had been. He'd been completely ignorant of what motivated Sesat's army and he'd been planning to maim us all and let one of his advisors pick out a few of us to have blinded. And... what did I say, it was something like...

"You can do what you like. You don't have to answer to me, I'm just some cripple who can't get out of bed, because I threw away everything else I ever had for you and your country. I would have liked to do it sooner, too, you know. I knew you didn't enslave civilians and that was good enough for me to want to give up almost everything, turn my back on the people who saved my life time and time again, and throw myself on your mercy. But I didn't because it would have put my family at risk, and you didn't know that, and you didn't wonder, and you were so happy to assume I was a monster who opposed you out of purest malice that you left me, you left someone who loves your cause more than I loved my  life or my health or the good regard of anyone I knew, alone in Sesat. You didn't try to coordinate with me because you didn't think I was worth coordinating with and so now here we are. We've lost things we didn't have to lose, if you'd bothered to wonder if I might not be a complete monster. And you know what? Everyone in the army who didn't care, everyone who was selfish and afraid, knew something like this would happen if they surrendered. And that worse would happen if they surrendered and you lost anyway. And what would it even get you? The same thing that toppled Sesat, a bunch of people you thought you'd wrecked so thoroughly they posed no threat, and whose ability to help you, and whose willingness to help you, you could not count on because you threw them away thinking you never could have had them in the first place. And the most self-respecting of them, and the ones who were least squeamish, and the ones with the best reflexes, would all have been dead. How did you think you were going to hold so much territory without flipping anyone in our army? You wouldn't have had to see the dead stares from whoever you had left alive, you wouldn't have had to see what becomes of people who no longer believe it's worth striving to be better and stronger, people who no longer think of themselves as worth investing in because any investment will just be taken away, but you know perfectly well that's no excuse for you not to have known and done something different.

"Or something like that. It's been years. And you're not Azan he, and Vanda Nossëo's mistakes aren't Azan's mistakes, but maybe it's helpful."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's - no, I think I'm still confused, I'm so sorry," says Melda. "I - I think a lot of this is about scale? About the - sheer number of people, and how much one of them could do if they took it into their heads, things we can't fix - so we don't wave off little things, because they might mean big things later, and they almost never do, but with trillions of people you can't afford to be wrong a thousandth of a percent of the time... or I'm reacting to the wrong thing entirely, I don't know."

Permalink Mark Unread

Shrug. "Maybe living in countries with trillions of people is bad for humans, but that really doesn’t make it more appealing. I think we might want to import your birth control because I'm guessing it fails less than a thousandth of a percent of the time since I have yet to see evidence that you preemptively castrate everyone."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- yes, we have birth control that fails less often than that and you can have it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Great. Anyway, I don’t expect you can see why a human would be harmed by that, I think it’s something that has to do with the ways we’re different from you. Like - you saw the state Sesat left me in. I bet your understanding of what was objectionable about it is 'it was physically painful and logistically complicated.' Right?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I assume it was also psychologically traumatizing! Elves aren't immune to trauma!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"What exactly does 'psychologically traumatizing' mean?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"A sufficiently stressful experience, especially one prominently featuring helplessness in particular, leaves - mental scars, that affect how people feel and think for a very long time."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess you could say that. But - lots of things are stressful. Losing my parents was stressful. Making the choice to buy a slave was stressful. Having sex for the first time was stressful. All of those things left mental marks of some kind or another. But - there's something different about losing things you've worked all your life for, and watching the connection between your will and the world around you shrink. Because... I'm not an Elf, and I'm not a sheep, and I'm not chattel. I can survive pain, or mental scars, or hunger, or needing someone else to bathe me. But I need to be worth investing in, or there's no point. I've seen how humans get when they give up on themselves because everyone else has given up on them. I've spent years trying to help Azan recover from that. And it doesn't sound like that's how your people are, and I'm not saying you haven't created one of the better places I've heard of for humans to live, you clearly have, and I'm not saying you routinely go as far as Sesat, and I'm not saying all your humans are too broken inside to have any worth. But - I seriously doubt you can know what it feels like to be made less like that, because - gods but all anyone would have to do is get one so-called 'oath' out of you and you'd be such convenient chattel, and you wouldn’t even mind if you were told not to. And it wouldn’t even be taking anything away from you, they could just tell you to act like it never happened and you would. And humans aren’t made for that and treating us like we are damages parts of us that I don't think you have."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- would you rather be talking to one of the humans on my team? The thing about guessing talking to an Elf might help was seriously only a guess, Casjan and Zua are both as human as you are and Luca's from a human-psychological-range species."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It would be helpful but I'm a little worried that - you probably can't be hurt by pointing this out, and they could be."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm - not sure what kind of hurt you're modeling?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Right. That shouldn’t surprise me. I think they might be trying to avoid thinking about things that would make them want not to be citizens of Vanda Nossëo and I want to be slightly careful about disturbing whatever is going on with them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If they want to move here no one's going to stop them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure. It’d probably be helpful to talk to one. I really don’t think you’ve done anything wrong, though, you’ve been kind and courteous and you came here in the hope that you could make everyone involved better off and we probably will be."

Permalink Mark Unread

She sighs. She nods. She leaves and is replaced a few minutes later with Zua.

"Afternoon," says Zua.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yep. Afternoon. Melda thinks I should talk to a human and - seemed to feel very bad about not being able to convince me we ought to join Vanda Nossëo and didn't seem at all reassured that I don't think it's because she did anything wrong."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- well, yeah, it would be kind of disappointing to not do the thing you were trying to do even if you didn't do anything wrong while you tried. How come you don't wanna join?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"With only the greatest respect for everyone who had to choose Vanda Nossëo to protect their people or have any chance of installing modern infrastructure it really isn’t appealing to give up on... being... human people who care about human things. Vanda Nossëo is the second best country I’ve ever heard of but we already have magic and science - if you’d showed up a couple of years later it’d be more obvious, we’re just in the middle of building the necessary infrastructure to actually use all these advances in ordinary life - so why would we become vassals to aliens who can’t even understand what it means to do right by humans just to be told the secrets of, say, electricity when we already know the secrets of electricity? Vanda Nossëo seems great and I think that’s because of all the wealth making it easy to avoid making tradeoffs at all, because where there are still tradeoffs it seems like they’re made in ways that are obviously bad for humans but not bad for Elves, as far as I can tell."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...lots of humans who have electricity or magic or even both join up."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Why?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"To be part of the grand project of panuniversal civilization? So they don't have to work for a living and can spend a few years doing things that don't make any money? Because we seem like such nice people and all the cool cultures are doing it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I’m not sold on your idea of coolness and everyone could have taken a few years off," uhhh an average person works from ten to fifty, three is a few, that’s six percent of their working life, Azan was planning on doubling how much food a farmer can produce this decade, yep, sabbaticals are totally workable, "even if we had never met you. And meanwhile - in Sesat child molesters used to be castrated and disfigured and stripped of their names. In Azan defeated enemies used to have the tendons in their right hands cut. As far as I can tell Vanda Nossëo's official objection to that is 'we’re so rich and powerful we can do something strictly superior.' Is that wrong?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Uh... what would you want to do with child molesters?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Execution, why?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"So, uh, you can see how that, like, limits them more than castrating them or whatever, right? Like, the stripping them of their names thing is uncalled for, but - oh is suicide illegal or something here?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sesat didn’t let slaves kill themselves. Some of them did it anyway."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay, so, suicide is totally legal in Vanda Nossëo. If somebody molests a child and they'd rather be dead than take a course of therapy or drugs or subtle arts or whatever the state of the art is for that now, they can... be dead. That's not even something we had to be rich to do, low-tech people can commit suicide."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And that’s lovely, and if it only applied to things that would be capital crimes in a human-run country that worked well for humans it’d be great, but it doesn’t."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Humans maybe vary more than you expect. Some cultures don't consider molesting kids a huge deal, say. My tribe used to get into fights with a neighboring tribe that was big into pederasty and that wasn't even what we were fighting them about."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In that case I’m confused that you expect so many people to join."

Permalink Mark Unread

"They want - better lives with nicer things in them. Vanda Nossëo'll trade with you, even if you don't join, but it's kind of hard to go shopping there if you don't get basic income in our currency because there's not that much you're likely to make that we'll wanna buy, and a lot of people don't want their entire economy to be selling curios to people who think it's really charming that it's an authentic handmade basket."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It sounds like that sucks for the people who have nothing to sell but authentic handmade baskets and I can see why countries with neither magic nor sex workers wouldn’t have many choices, though I do expect in our case there’s going to be a market for magic painlessly detachable prosthetics that move and feel and don’t even chafe like wooden legs. And glow. And don’t have to be body parts you had in the first place."

Permalink Mark Unread

"A lot of people also don't want their main industry to be sex? The prosthetics thing might be a fine market niche, I dunno."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess so. Anyway, why'd you join?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, I didn't vote, actually, I was dead at the time. Big into this not being dead thing I'm doing now."

Permalink Mark Unread

He laughs. "I’ve never been dead, what’s that like?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Like absolutely nothing but the part before that there was a lot of blood." She makes a "bleah" sort of face.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh. Well, that’s good to know. Probably implies we should stop doing human sacrifice. Sorry it wasn’t a fun process."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, it sucked. One'a my kids did the magic rock thing and got me back and now almost no things suck, in my life anyway."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Did anyone you knew find Vanda Nossëo's laws hard to follow?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Some of them, yeah. The ones who wanted to keep to all the, like, old ways. I don't hang out with them any more, they're sexist as fuck."

Permalink Mark Unread

"In Azan it’s not terribly unusual for women to be, say, more violently inclined than the laws I read led me to believe is acceptable in Vanda Nossëo."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I used to slap my kids around when they misbehaved, like that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Is that not allowed either? That’s ridiculous.

"Azanis don’t really have formal dueling customs but they have the instinct to avenge wrongs and protect their loved ones. The women too. It’s odd from a Sesati perspective and I don’t think I’ve heard of another nation where if you push the women too far they might beat you black and blue but that’s the thing I mean. And it’s not just that people get surprised or let them do it, Azan she once defeated two men while unarmed and in chains and one of them didn’t survive." And, yeah, that’s the Azani woman with the absolute best access to training and meat, and, yeah, she was twenty and they weren’t, but still.

(It doesn’t go over well with Azanis to say Azan doesn’t really have women.)

Permalink Mark Unread

"Wow, badass. Yeah, we didn't do dueling, we did shunning."

Permalink Mark Unread

Maybe humans just vary a lot. Well, it's not implausible that foreign humans would do weird things. It doesn't seem like Zua's experiences have much bearing on whether anyone he cares about would be okay in Vanda Nossëo.

"I hope that worked well for you."

Permalink Mark Unread

"God, no, it was awful, the whole tribe schismed over it once because there was somebody shunned whose friends thought it was unfair and we all had to shun everybody who talked to them and eventually it was enough people they just left and I never saw them again."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...I'm glad you found something else to do." Should he be confident that he's right about what works for humans - yeah, it doesn't sound like these people were ever under the impression that their way worked, and it's not like he's attached to the first idea he ever encountered about how a society should be structured to be good for people.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I guess if we'd killed them instead I'd've seen them again. They're alive now, I assume, just mad at me, about the shunning, which is pretty reasonable."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm sorry."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So you're like, really attached to dueling?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...No? I just said Azan doesn’t really do that? I'm really attached to the people I know who are very trustworthy but have a tendency to do rash things in anger being whole and healthy and treated in ways that make sense given how they behave in a wide range of circumstances instead of harmed for falling afoul of overly strict laws with very little benefit. And I’m really attached to foreigners not coming in and claiming the right to decide whether our people should be allowed to have magic powers."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So - what is it you think is gonna happen, your buddy's going to go on a pub crawl across the multiverse and kick somebody in the face and you don't want them to go to substance counseling about it -? You want to be on the teleport license committee or something?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah, you can gloss me as being on the teleport license committee, Azan she and her council and I have discussed how Azan's laws should be changed in light of the existence of teleportation already. We of course welcome stories of the experiences of our friends in comparable situations; even though your society is very different from ours and what works for you is very different from what works for us, we can both learn things from each other."

Five years ago he would have identified this mood as too pissed off to keep playing Azani-style games but that's not it, really. It's the way Zua is talking like it's a done deal that Azan will be joining and the question is whether Valan can be bought off; it's not very Azani at all, it's more like how Sesatis talk, and that calls for a response on the same level, and that's obnoxious and he's mad about it, and besides that it calls the whole idea that they're not really here for conquest into question.

And that might not be right. Cross-cultural communication is hard. He keeps an eye out for signs that Zua looks confused or surprised or in any way not like she's falling right into the next step in this conversational dance.

Permalink Mark Unread

She looks thoughtful, but in an almost playful way. "Not everybody can be on the teleport license committee, that would sort of stop being a committee at some point. I guess you can be on the Azan teleport license committee if you don't join up and you have an in. Especially if you have enough of an in to stop them even holding a vote. Or is it that you just don't think the regular folks'd vote yes?"

Permalink Mark Unread

Hard to say if that’s confirmation. It’s not disconfirmation, anyway.

"A little of both."

It matters whether the common people would be better off joining Vanda Nossëo and they probably have useful input on that, if someone had time to discuss it with them, ask as many clarifying questions as necessary, and answer all their questions in turn. But it's not feasible to do that for everyone, and Azan's people are - probably not smart enough for democracy, but regardless not used to it, not capable of giving a useful yes or no answer alone with no way to find out what Vanda Nossëo is like and no one to ask for advice. He's pretty tempted to suggest that they give everyone a chance to visit Vanda Nossëo, and get their own basic income program started, and get a little library in every village, and give everyone time to take advantage of not having to work all the time to get used to studying and thinking, and hold a vote when it would mean something. See how Vanda Nossëo would like that. He'll say so if it ever seems wise, but it doesn't right now.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, I mean, no rush on the vote if you want to wait and feel us out a bit more, not everybody can be a Maitimo."

Permalink Mark Unread

"A what?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"They're this template with really ridiculous charisma, they're great at getting on the same page with people. Frankly I don't get why they don't print off a few thousand of them and have one leading every envoy team but here I am."

Permalink Mark Unread

...Well, that’s sure an interesting capacity for them to have.

"Huh. I don’t expect that would help," he says slightly coldly. Yep, that’s confirmation that Vanda Nossëo doesn’t actually care if joining would be good for Azan. There’s probably some anti-war faction to appease but being better at talking people into things that aren’t in their interests isn’t considered objectionable. Well, that’s not really surprising, probably most diplomats are like that.

At any rate that isn’t how Sesatis talk so this conversation probably doesn’t have Sesati-style subtext on her end. Zua probably just genuinely can’t mentally inhabit a world where Azan could turn them down. And that’s terrifying.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Some people genuinely do not like Maitimor and you are sorta prickly so I could imagine you being one of 'em." Shrug. "If you're not going to join are you still going to want stores here? Bus stations?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Yes? Do you meet a lot of people who don’t?" Wow, that’s one of the most sympathetic things she could have said, and also, wow.

Permalink Mark Unread

"- well, it really depends why they don't want in and I'm still gathering blackberries in the dark over here, so it seemed worth asking."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I believe you about that, because cross-cultural communication is very hard, but I'm almost out of ideas to try to fix it. Honestly, I thought it was easier to talk to Melda, we were just under the misapprehension that there'd be less inferential distance with you. Uh, when I was speaking to her before, I said i didn't particularly think trillions of people is a size of political unit that can be governed well, but it sounds like you've never actually experienced better governance, and - in general it sounds like I shouldn't expect you to be at all sympathetic to any of my concerns, so I expect us to be unable to go beyond my listing things that don't sound to you like reasons to object to Vanda Nossëo and you saying you don't understand. For example, I was able to infer how effective your birth control is from the fact that men are allowed in Vanda Nossëo, and the fact that that worked is extremely objectionable."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...why... wouldn't men be... allowed in... was Melda getting all Elfy about you about people having kids by accident, she's not actually supposed to do that, Elves hate that shit but that's because they just literally can't get pregnant on accident unless an evil god is fucking with them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Good for them." (Elves not needing to exercise self-restraint can go on the list of reasons Elves don't interact with the entire concept of personal virtue and Melda claiming otherwise is probably some kind of misunderstanding.) "No, she mentioned acceptable levels of risk and that you guys are comfortable just taking capabilities away from people if there's a thousandth of a percent chance they might cause problems with them, and that is - I don't have that many objections to Vanda Nossëo's specific concrete policies that I've heard of so far as compared to lots of other places, but that's the most objectionable underlying attitude I have ever heard of a government having and I want absolutely no part of it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- if somebody with Melda's powers goes nuts they can teleport a planet into a star."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Cool! Can you walk me through - like, does your resurrection require you to have a body or bring them back in the location where they died or something?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"No, you can do it with a demon or somebody with wished on powers like theirs, and with a magic rock, but people die at a pretty sharp clip if you let them alone - not Elves, again, they don't get old or anything and if they do manage to kick it there's a not especially evil god that puts them back - so there's a huge backlog. There's only one of the thingamabobs that can make magic rocks or wish powers onto folks and we have not the fuckingest clue how it was made though, so that's a bottleneck."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay. Melda said your concerns were about unfixable problems, and it sounds like the unfixable problem in that scenario is that some of the people have friends or families on other planets who miss them for a few years, is that right?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...yeah, and they don't all get rezzed same-day, so that's a nightmare - happened on Melda's planet, everybody on it dead, guy was churning out a dozen rezzes a minute and it took super long and they were all so fucked up about it."

Permalink Mark Unread

If everyone he’s lost were going to come back to him someday safe and sound, he would manage not to be fucked up about it. They aren’t, and he’s not fucked up about it even so. At a dozen a minute - how many people live on a planet, a billion? So that’s -

- that’s a pretty distant someday.

"I understand why it would feel like anything was justified to avoid the kinds of things people do to each other when they’re careless. It’s just - I don’t know. The theoretical possibility that someone could do something bad doesn’t seem like a good reason to bow to some aliens I hadn’t heard of yesterday. And - you can live the way those laws I read imply people live. It’s possible to be okay even when the only thing keeping you safe is the fact that other people treasure you, and when you can't be part of the - the ways people relate to each other, when they're strong and proud - it's possible to be okay even when people handle you like a delicate bit of pottery. But it's very hard, and it's a lot to ask of anyone, and it's not as good, and maybe it's inescapable, and maybe it's ridiculous of me to treat it like it's something about Vanda Nossëo's laws when it was never really what life was like for everyone. But I - I knew, you know, that not everyone could take the time to practice archery like I could, that not everyone could afford good weapons, but I never made a law saying they weren't allowed. And in Azan they can, actually, if a farmer's son shows promise he can be trained - if a farmer's daughter shows promise she can be trained, I've met an Azani soldier who was a farmer's daughter. And like I told Melda, I think it's - good for people beyond just whether they end up any use in a war, if they think they can aspire to grow stronger. And if they know that everything will be taken away from them if it's not convenient for their superiors, that leads very bad places that I'm not saying you've already gotten to but I am saying I want to live in a country where whether we go there is not luck. Is that by any chance clearer than the last several times I said it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...not really, because I don't know where you got the idea that you can't aspire to grow stronger in Vanda Nossëo. I was this random resurrected no-powers human and I went and learned to be a wizard, and, yeah, they'd do something about me if I went super nuts, if you and your archery went nuts would they keep giving you arrows??"

Permalink Mark Unread

"'Giving'. Ha. - In Azan that's a reasonable question. No, they would not proactively give someone free stuff, something Sesat never did in the first place, and yes, there exist fights where disarming someone or seriously injuring them is a sensible thing to do. And, yes, until recently Azan's policy was that defeated enemies should have the tendons in their right hand cut, and that was absolutely at least as horrible a policy as any of yours. I talked with Azan he about it, years ago, and he ended up changing it, partly because I said so. The fact that it was a horrible policy mattered to Azan he, and it matters to me, so now Azan is better. Vanda Nossëo so far as I can tell is ruled entirely by people who don't care, so it won't improve and might get worse. And then there's Sesat. About which that question as phrased doesn't really apply but it's..." He trails off, shaking his head. "Let's go with 'no but they metaphorically should have.'"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...yeah I don't think I really get what kind of world you wanna live in. There's like, entertainment deathmatches with prizes and shit, if that's what you want to do, get into deathmatches, and they have rez insurance and all, but I don't want somebody deciding that my life is a deathmatch now without my say-so."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I am aware that you don't understand. I didn't expect you to, because if you were going to you would have just asked the Star-of-Stars why he hates you so much at any point since you first encountered the other Sesat. I'm trying to bear in mind that your confusion is genuine and you have even less context on why what you just said might be offensive than you do on anything else, but that's taking up enough of my attention that I don't really have any spare for a good answer, and having a government that saw me the way you do would not be the worst thing that has happened in my life, that honor goes to the time Sesat should have metaphorically kept giving me arrows, but it would certainly suck."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't actually know if I in particular could get an audience with the Star-of-Stars but even if I did and I asked him I don't see why he'd make more sense than you do? I can try it if you think it'll help. Uh, you sound kind of done, should I go?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I did find Melda easier to talk to."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'll... send her back and let her figure out if that means you actually want to talk to her, shall I, this snazzy headband I have on only makes me better at math and stuff, not at people." Off she goes.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yep," he mutters even though she doesn’t seem to care if he has a response.

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda comes back, looking worried.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I’m sure she’ll stop sticking her foot in her mouth with practice but I don’t want to be her practice when it’s just going to consist of endless variations on 'so why don’t you want to bow to us? the last three times you answered this question I somehow misheard you as saying "because I love hurting people and am a complete monster" but maybe this time will be different!'"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- just to be sure," says Melda, "you know the bowing is purely a metaphor you are applying to the situation and neither literally customary nor how we think of it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Would you like to describe it in your own words?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Membership is - participation in our governance, a commitment to the safety of visitors, a leg up in the economy, a safety net if something happens and you need help. Your vote would count as much as mine, a tourist would feel just as confident in coming to check out your city as mine, you'd get just as much basic income as I do, and if the multiverse throws something at you or Emika gets aggressive or anything like that we'd be right there with you. It's joining an alliance, not a feudal hierarchy."

Permalink Mark Unread

"An alliance whose laws you decided on before I ever heard of you and won't change for me."

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you think you're getting at something a lot of humans need then you could start a campaign to get a lot of humans to vote for a change."

Permalink Mark Unread

"You have a lot of faith in democracy and if everyone mysteriously did vote for the thing they'd vote for if they understood the question and were aware of all the important context I think I might find that in your alliance where everyone is allowed to leave or die there aren't many people who really take issue with anything about how things are run."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I actually don't have a lot of faith in democracy, I'm from a monarchy because that generally suits Elves fine, but it's the mechanism we have for making sure everyone's input is incorporated when there's a lot of everyone. If you just want to live in a small society that's not part of a larger umbrella I could understand that, but you - haven't seemed to just mean that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, you did say the other things are because you have too many people, so who knows."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a big contributor. But there won't stop being so many people even if there's no umbrella organization."

Permalink Mark Unread

Shrug. "Zua expected we wouldn’t want you to open any shops here, is there a reason we might not want that?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Some places that are relatively hostile to us are that way because of general isolationist beliefs or economic protectionism of some kind and those don't want shops. That's probably what she had in mind."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I see. Well, Azan is kind of isolationist, but not in that way. Anyway, are there - other things we should talk about beyond 'yeah, it isnt likely Azan is going to reverse course on principles most people here are willing to die for just to spite the least concerning foreign country in all the worlds we know of'?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- are you saying that Azan most likely will join, and it's just you personally who's against it?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...No? I don’t have the final say in the matter but I do expect to get what I want. Why does 'we are interested in peaceful trade and not in political union at this time' sound like one or another of 'we’d love to join immediately' or 'I reserve the right to duel you, a woman from a culture where they don’t even practice for that in the first place, to the death, for no reason'?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- you said words other than 'we are interested in peaceful trade and not in political union at this time' most recently. You said 'yeah, it isn't likely Azan is going to reverse course on principles most people here are willing to die for just to spite the least concerning foreign country in all the worlds we know of'. I'm repeating these words exactly as I understood them to check for translation problems. To my ear that suggests, for example: that 'most people', being a different set from you specifically, may have interests at work which might not be identical to yours, and the thing about not spiting us sounds framed in a - less adversarial - I apologize for the misunderstanding."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...That's fair, I did say those words and I think I'm getting touchy and that's not really fair to you, both because the thing we've been doing is very hard and because you're literally a different person from the one who just pissed me off. Anyway, in Azan, it's - important to let people go where they will, and compete to be worthy of them, and I'm not against that at all, and I would also at least consider dying for that principle. So you can expect not to have problems with people who want to live in Azan and sell things, or people who want to help other people move in or out. I - hm. I am not entirely confident as to how adversarial you're being, and even less so now that I've talked with Zua, but - there hasn't been much to say about you opening a bus stop, say, because that's great and I can confidently predict that Azan she will have no objections, no one on the council will be worse than neutral toward it, our existing laws cover it, I don't have any concerns about it, I don't expect it to be notably disruptive or bothersome in any way beyond the possibility that someone living next to it would be annoyed about all the traffic - and now we've spent this whole time talking about the only one of the things you came here hoping for that anyone has the slightest objection to and I'm concerned it's left you with the impression that the range of plausible outcomes here isn't wholly restricted to ones where you get most of what you want and we get most of what we want and almost everyone is better off, so just to be really clear - you are not close to provoking a war, you can basically expect to be the ones imposing limits on trade and travel, outcomes that anyone involved would describe as atrocities are not very likely, you're not even likely to meet with widespread distaste on a personal level - I don't like Zua but that doesn't even imply anything about the two of us getting along with anyone besides each other in particular. If there was a subtextual way I was supposed to communicate that I'm sorry for having failed at it."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I appreciate that all this quibbling is only about - comparatively minor things. Is there something I should be chiding Zua for or would you rather keep it between you?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't want her hurt but you seem like you might have the kind of culture where that's not what chiding her would mean, and I'm not sure you could say anything useful about it anyway even to the extent that it’s about how diplomatically she expressed herself as opposed to - honestly expressing objectionable things about the attitudes of people in Vanda Nossëo."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I mean, she's on an envoy team, she should make some attempt to diplomatically express herself, though I could imagine her having picked up cues that suggested to her that she should be - blunter - depending on what was said. Did she say something about... dueling?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"You want to get into it? Okay, so I said - no, let me start further back. She said Vanda Nossëo would 'do something' if she 'went super nuts' and asked if a poorly specified 'they' that I thought was probably Sesat but might be Azan would give me more arrows if I 'went nuts', with the arrows being I-thought-clear metonymy for all abilities I might be able to use offensively. Not being sure which she meant I answered for both. Azan used to have that horrible custom of cutting tendons to disarm people, but it doesn’t anymore, and that’s not random, that’s because Azan he and I talked about it and he realized it was horrible, and I expect Azan she to have similar sensibilities and also to listen to me, so I expect future changes will be more likely to happen in the direction of less of that kind of thing, rather than more. And Sesat of course didn't literally give me arrows in the first place - Azan actually does, sort of - but there was sure a time when they decided I'd gone nuts and should have fewer metaphorical arrows and I have some issues with how they handled that situation. And she said - this is a paraphrase because I'm worried about not catching a misunderstanding - that it sounds like these horrible bloodthirsty impulses of mine would be satisfied by prize fights but she doesn't want to be challenged to a duel to the death and that's a consideration of overriding importance. Her precise words were, fuck I don't actually remember exactly, something closer to 'there's, like, entertainment deathmatches and shit' and 'I don't want somebody deciding that my life is a deathmatch now without my say-so' - I'm pretty confident in the accuracy of that last part. So I think there's an element of, uh, her saying things that you're probably very sympathetic to and that I think of as horrible, and also an element of - I'm not totally sure if I misunderstood the relevance, or if she just didn't really listen to me and had that counterargument ready no matter what I said, or if I missed an idiom, or what, but my guess is it's the second one. I don't think she was too blunt."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So, it's understandable that having been yourself subject to invasive, broad, likely traumatizing, interventions that were at least described to you as being preventative measures issued by a justice system, anything reminiscent would be really upsetting... I'm going to try speaking in shorter paragraphs to allow more course-correction, does that sound totally nonsensical as a response to what you said?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It sounds sensible. Neither of those things was described exactly that way but it sounds sensible and I can also try to let you get a word in edgewise."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So there's - do you have concepts that map onto 'false positive' and 'false negative' -"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Like when you think there's someone in the bushes but there isn't, or you think there isn't but there is?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, just like that. And it's possible for systems to make both kinds of errors at different times, and possible to find one kind of error more recoverable or palatable than the other, and possible to find reducing one or the other sort of error more resource-intensive or to require more compromises of your other values and needs, right?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Sure?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"So it sounds like you have reason to be very - suspicious - about errors in the direction of reacting strongly towards neutralizing threats, or even things that aren't technically errors because the threats exist - you've seen it done harmfully, experienced it, and by comparison feel more comfortable with the risks involved in potentially-threatening people around you retaining those abilities?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Just to clarify, that was already my stance before I'd experienced it." The idea of unpacking how that experience affected his views for Melda sounds really unpleasant and it's not missing very much nuance to say it didn't, so.

Permalink Mark Unread

"My mistake. But at any rate that is your stance, that it's worse to err on the one side, or invest in avoiding errors in the one direction, compared to the other. Yes?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Sure? But also now you sound like you in fact think there's a cost there - an inherent one, not one that you can happen to incur if you do it wrong - whereas in every single thing you or Zua has previously said it's seemed extremely obvious that you don't."

Permalink Mark Unread

"- oh okay, I can see how - no, it's absolutely imposing a cost on people to have this much forensic capacity and monopoly on force available to level at them even if they as individuals never meet it in their lives. I believe we are doing better with the organization and management of the powers than our absence - since most of the powers existed already - by an absolutely enormous margin but we are paying for it with people's - ability to not have to account for themselves to strangers."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Okay." Shrug. " - I wonder if that's exactly the inverse of the thing where you folks make such a huge deal of violence or not quite."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Maybe, say more?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Because - you could imagine it as almost the same kind of thing - you can say 'we'll do our best not to leave people weaker, because there are horrible things down that road, even if you could make the argument that people don't really need to be able to teleport just to be able to get around in their daily lives and the damage they can do is really tremendous', and you can also say 'we just won't hurt people or stand by and let people be hurt, because there are horrible things down that road, even if you could make the argument that the occasional bruise doesn't really matter and it's miserable to be cut off from fully interacting with each other', and the horrible things are the same horrible things."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes. That sounds right to me. And compared to the kinds of things you'd be used to in a Bronze Age human environment, with our power and our scale I think the costs of one strategy outpace the other - it'd be reasonable to disagree, of course, but it's absolutely not that we don't hate taking people's abilities and freedoms away."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The example Zua gave was that you could teleport a planet into the sun. The scale is impressive but we’ve done uglier."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a standard example mostly because it exemplifies the scale, not - creativity. There's a template of evil gods that we don't negotiate with and don't put on trial and just kill on discovery because they like to put prisoners through accelerated-time hallucinations of torture and betrayal and loss until they are often permanently insane even when released and only want to be dead forever, is that more the sort of thing?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Yeah, that would have been logistically difficult for us last year, no comment on this one. Uh, but like you seem to have noticed, it’s not good to have them alive and damaged either, and I'm skeptical of the existence of anyone it is good to have alive and damaged but not good to have whole."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Is there any kind of slightly more concrete example you'd find paradigmatic that I could talk about here to have more of a handle on what details matter?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I’m not sure what you’re asking for."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think it would be easier to talk about, say, an unethical subtle artist who mishandled their patients and passersby and got their powers suppressed, or a teleporter who went around committing murders of passion with this ability, or an eclipsed who worked for the aforementioned evil god's right hand, or a morpher who enjoyed turning into venomous snakes and biting people, than about the justice system encompassing all of those."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Sure. Let’s say I don’t know a lot about subtle arts yet and want to hear about that."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Subtle arts are a class of powers originating in Materia, a hostile world - the world, itself, is hostile - which we are gradually evacuating from the outside. People with the ability hereditarily or wished-on have some aptitude for any or all of telepathy, telekinesis, and pyrokinesis, but the first one is what gets the most attention. In Materia it's often used in a therapeutic context to help patients with, say, nightmares or anxiety. It can do things that are sufficiently unobtrusive that they could go unnoticed till our accessible precog windows had been and gone, and also irreversible. It doesn't feel like anything to have it done to you. It works through walls. Practitioners can have substantial range, even with strangers. It's extremely useful, subtle artists who have any competence at all in the therapeutic side of things can charge what they like, so there are a lot of people who want the powers wished on. And it would not be particularly challenging for, say, a skilled subtle artist to implant a delayed suggestion in a few hundred people that some months later they would all coordinatedly start killing people, perhaps specific ones, perhaps not."

Permalink Mark Unread

"And there are lots of people who are upstanding members of society that you’re glad to have around who are just waiting for a chance to mind control people to engage in mass killings."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Nope. Vanishingly rare. I don't think that specific thing has ever happened. But we also want to be able to assure people that if they go to a subtle artist to get their night terrors resolved, their subtle artist not only won't do something that big, but also won't take shortcuts that endanger them, aren't using their practice as legitimacy cover to mind-control their family members, aren't taking advantage of patients while they've knocked them unconscious, that any tendencies like that would have been screened for and any record of that sort of thing would have lost them their license. We can't prevent people from doing all bad things ever - we can make sure they can't do it and keep their powers, we can make sure they can't do it twice."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It sounds like you’re making Sesat's mistake. Which is not the same thing as being cruel, and if anything it’s the opposite, but keeping a large number of people alive and angry with you on the theory that you’re stronger and more creative than all of them put together can fail spectacularly."

Permalink Mark Unread

"So, I think a lot of them - aren't actually angry for that long. They know the terms of their licenses, we make really sure they're clear on the law, and it's just not actually that bad, to live in Vanda Nossëo with a rap sheet. Worse than without, but not that bad."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That sounds like the impression I have of Zua as a person. Or you. It explains why my alt would risk a blind jump to a random universe rather than live there, though."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Speaking of," she says, "I do have a reply about whether there are more of you around on the map."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Huh! Are there?"

Permalink Mark Unread

She opens the message. "Looks like two, not counting the one from the other Sesat. - that's living, this check wouldn't have caught any who are ghosts or anything."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well, I guess if you've already gone to the trouble of finding them, I'd be interested to meet them."

Permalink Mark Unread

"One's from an uncontacted planet but one of them - works for us, apparently, I'll ask if he's free to come by." Email is composed.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I'm sure that would be interesting."

(They'll have an answer in a couple minutes. He is not at this moment busy and can show up if someone sends him a picture.)

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda sends the image of the courtyard.

Permalink Mark Unread

And then there is an angel. He doesn't look at all like Valan in most of the ways Valan pays attention to. He has big feathered wings and skin darker than those explorers who visited from the south over a decade ago and were never heard from again and he's dressed in silky gold fabric in a very foreign style and his eyes are literally green.

He bounces on the balls of his feet and twitches his wings and grins hugely. "Hi! I heard I have an alt?"

"So I hear," says Valan, glancing at Melda.

Permalink Mark Unread

"That's what Forensics tells me but if you find you have nothing in common I can ask for a double check!"

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Do we have things in common?" Valerian muses. "Uh, alts sometimes have their families in common, I don't have siblings or parents or anything... I think making friends is nice, I was awful at music till I picked up the flute about thirty years ago and now I'm still awful at singing, I do like seeing wild places, I read an economics textbook once but that's all, I like getting summoned better than using Allspeak for being able to talk to people but less than teleportation for being able to go places, I don't like any mind-altering substances, I know too many secrets to let anyone read my mind but I don't feel viscerally horrified by the idea, I'm not clumsy, I don't really know what else to say?" Beyond the tendency to monologue he also has a similar way of speaking, modulo some linguistic and cultural trends in prosody; they both have an idiosyncratic way of talking that queers the binary between mumbling and speaking notably clearly.

"I am also not clumsy," says Valan.

"Wow! We're definitely alts! We're completely identical!"

Valan snorts. "Everyone thinks making friends is nice and has secrets." He looks at Melda. "Look, how do you recognize your alts?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I don't have any. Your voices do sound similar to me. How did you recognize your alt from Emika?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Someone else noticed on the basis of things that don’t apply here. Well, taking it as given for the moment, why do you work for them?"

"Because people in some worlds are really miserable and don’t have much leverage to fix it and if it’s not fixed in eighty years then without our help it never will be - if we just stood by it’d be true forever that a hundred percent of some people's lives was miserable. - Or Mîr or Elendil would fix it but I’m not counting closely allied polities run by alts of the same people as importantly different."

"And is it going to turn out that your whole species is so horrified by the concept of pain that you think anyone who inflicts any amount of it on anyone ever for any reason should be made unable to ever do it again?"

"...Um... no?"

"Why are you willing to live under Vanda Nossëo's laws?"

"...You do know consensual kink is legal, right?"

"Is 'consensual kink' what it’s called when the eighth person in one day calls you a coward and an untrustworthy scheming bastard whose whole family doesn’t deserve a clean death, not having bothered to find out how many of your family members actually did die fighting, and you hit them, and then, and this part is important, everyone else doesn’t write you off as a complete monster that can’t deserve any better than to be locked up somewhere or mind controlled into just laying down and taking it and certainly can’t be trusted with any kind of power because what if caring about your family is a fucking excuse to hurt people and your fondest ambition is genocide."

"..Wow, um, can I just - um - it's not the official stance of Vanda Nossëo that people can deserve to be locked up somewhere - people disagree but the party line is very much that no one can possibly deserve anything bad, ever, they can just not deserve it while threatening to do things to other people that those people don't deserve either - and, so, would I be right if I guessed that you're from a society where everyone is terrifyingly vulnerable, and the absolute best protection anyone can offer their loved ones doesn't actually make it impossible or even all that hard to hurt or kill them, so a normal part of your protection strategy is that if something happens to someone in your family you'll stop caring about anything other than getting the goriest revenge possible, and then you make that obvious by demonstrating that you're willing to resort to violence if someone just tries to establish common - uh, if someone just tries to make it the case that everyone knows that everyone else thinks someone you care about should be fair game, because that's the first step to actually hurting them?"

"That makes it really obvious you're an alien who read about humans in a book once but so did the wings. Sure, that's close enough, less so since we've gotten access to magic."

"...Okay. There is no amount of force that can remove one my limbs, break one of my bones, or render one of my organs nonfunctional. There is no amount of force that can do this to any of my close friends. Even if I were completely unconcerned with the wellbeing of people who insult me and didn't care at all about deescalating, the chance that I could misunderstand an innocent comment as an insult is vastly greater than the chance that anyone might ever hurt me or anyone I care about. That's for sale. You can buy it. But the rate at which it can be sold is slower than the rate at which we contact new people who could benefit from things we have better throughput on, and it trades off against other things, so it's really nice if we can try to keep demand down a little, like by not hurting each other. And, I'm not sure what you guys have already talked about, but I wouldn't expect someone who did that when it was the way to protect their loved ones to have any problems? There's a different kind of person who does it when it won't protect anyone, because they just like hurting people or because they just have no ability to change their habits or because they didn't bother to keep up with what's different in different places. That kind of irresponsibility is the same kind of irresponsibility that could lead them to hurt someone by accident, like - okay, how much do you know about daeva?"

"Not enough to be sure where you’re going with that question."

"So, we naturally start existing in worlds with only other daeva, who we can’t hurt very badly, and we have powers like - so, the memetic example for angels is turning people into furniture, but that’s - there are subtler things, that we can do by accident. And for a long time whenever I'd visit other kinds of people, they’d summon me with magic that let them list things they didn’t want me to do and I physically couldn’t do those things until I went home, and - it wasn’t better but there were good things about not having to be personally one hundred percent responsible for the safety of the people around me. I wanted to be really confident that I knew how to avoid hurting people, and how to make it easy for other people to tell that I wouldn’t hurt them, before I started mostly getting around in ways that don’t let other people put those kinds of restrictions on me. Because I don’t want them to be hurt or even afraid. And if instead I had been in the habit of not worrying about it and trusting other people to protect themselves, it’d be stupid to give me more power while there are still people saving up for indestructibility."

"...Huh. That's - I can see why you'd end up like that. I don't think I understand how you live like that but I can see why you'd at least think it had some upside."

"Also, I have read multiple books about humans, dated an ex-summoner, taken classes where my classmates were mostly human from mostly human instructors, and listened to literally thousands of hours of mostly humans telling me stories mostly about other humans. Different planets are different and humans deal with that by having different kinds of societies. Cultures of honor like yours are common but mostly not in the conditions there are in Peal polities - I think there's a tendency for humans whose planets used to have honor cultures to think of them as obsolete and one of the evils they've moved past, and I'm sorry, that's just going to suck and there's no way around it. And also consensual kink is the thing where you think pain is really fun, or being bound and gagged is really fun, or both, and someone who thinks hurting people is fun shows you a good time."

Valan pulls his mouth to one side and makes a vaguely thoughtful noise.

"Anyway, I thought of something. I have this demon acquaintance who made a solar system just for showcasing the vegetation and insect life of their top hundred favorite biomes and if you're my alt you'll want to see it."

"I think that's up there with 'I like making friends'. Yes, I want to see that. Maybe when everything we need to do in the few days after meeting yet another world is done."

"Oh. You guys were in the middle of stuff, weren't you. Here, so you can get in touch later." Valerian offers him a business card. " - 'Yet another'?"

Valan stares at the business card for a while before pocketing it. Probably it will make sense eventually. "You're not the first aliens to drop in. Anyway, I don’t have any brilliant ideas to tell if we have anything more in common than any random pair of people but thanks for telling me about your powers, it's... good to know."

"Any time. I have questions of my own but I should probably save them for later and get out of your hair, yeah?"

Valan shrugs. "Maybe they'll be enlightening."

"Is 'what’s the coolest thing about your planet' enlightening?"

"No, and of all the places I know of this version of Azan is the best in the multiverse at least as regards the wellbeing of its people. So far."

Valerian snorts. "Okay, yeah, I buy it, that’s - not something I'd say but paying attention to the things I'd pay attention to. Anyway, nice meeting you, please be in touch."

"I will."

Valerian disappears.

Permalink Mark Unread

Melda has been hanging back a bit anxiously. She takes a step forward once Valerian's gone.

Permalink Mark Unread

"Well. I was right that that was interesting. I think I have even less idea what your society is like than I thought I did and - you know, I see why you'd want to start off by making it clear that joining you peacefully and getting paid for it is an option, but the more I learn the more I think no one could know what they were getting into after less than a year's study."

Permalink Mark Unread

"A lot of places do take a while to get familiar enough to go ahead with a vote. It's all right to need time."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Were you planning to say anything if we'd decided to hold a vote today and make it known that the king wants everyone to vote to join?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"- well, it takes a little longer than that to set it up. Usually we have everybody watch videos of Princess Elspeth explaining the procedure. - she's magically difficult to misunderstand, hard to disbelieve when she speaks the truth, and works on recordings."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Creepy! How confident are you that she's only hard to disbelieve when telling the truth?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"A track record corroborated by immune disinterested persons."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Did she tell them they were immune?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"If you want the complete experimental history it's probably up on Manalabs."

Permalink Mark Unread

"I probably do. What's Manalabs?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"It's a website that collects information about magical experiments and research."

Permalink Mark Unread

"...Is there maybe a book that lists the top fifty things like that with answers to the obvious followup questions about them until you've reached a point where the answers will reliably make sense to someone who can't be counted on to know any specific individual thing about modern technology?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"I think most people start with Wikipedia. Do you want me to show you Wikipedia?"

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yes, please."

Permalink Mark Unread

She will navigate his computer to Wikipedia for him and show him how the display and character input settings work and then he can look up Manalabs and Azan and anything else that pops into his head. "It can be edited by anyone - most people don't, some people spend a lot of time researching and refining articles, and a few people do vandalism that's usually quickly corrected; if something seems odd you can check the previous versions of the page like so."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Oh, this is really cool." And probably wrong about a lot of things but a way to learn what the consensus is on any given topic is very useful even if it’s about as accurate as asking a crowd and believing whoever shouts loudest. He’s definitely less informed than the average crowd about a lot of things right now, but more importantly he can check what they say about the other Azan and the other Sesat. And Manalabs, sure, why not, he knows less than an average crowd about it.

Permalink Mark Unread

Other Azan: Recent member country, nicest Bronze Age settled civilization they've ever met really, cut it out with the blinding people and stuff pronto when asked nicely, extremely open immigration law mean it's becoming an interesting and increasingly densifying melting pot of folks who most places won't admit or who just think the principle is admirable (though it's not the only place with extremely open immigration law so it's not taking the full brunt of these populations).

Other Sesat: Shitty honor culture, diplomatic catastrophe, did Vanda Nossëo back a coup for some reason?? is that legal??, claim to be upset about magic licensing and subtle arts, biiiig into slavery and also the bilateral abuse of restraining orders, enter at your own risk.

Manalabs: An online archive of published nonsecret magical research, awards the following badges to research that can prove it's particularly rigorous/replicated/honest/meticulous/whatever, organized by type(s) of magic at issue, additionally hosts profiles of unique magic users so people can find papers relating to their magic individually and get a sense of how their individual personalities might have influenced or limited the research.

Permalink Mark Unread

They’re fucked. He’s spent years trying to keep the peace, trying to help people who have wronged each other beyond healing live with each other, and he's been succeeding and they've been okay, and now it's not at all obvious how to keep this from ripping Azan apart at its very fragile seams.

He reads Manalabs for a while. It seems important to know as much as he can about the magic they have and how to gain as much of it as possible and how to defend against as much of it as possible.

Permalink Mark Unread

There are so many kinds. Resurrection requires an interaction from this one and that one. Experiments are ongoing on whether this genetically induced magic can happen in kids conceived and born outside of the relevant world or not. That one is mostly illegal but they use it to kill Melkors.

Permalink Mark Unread

He makes a few mental lists - magic they're not gatekeeping very much (resurrection, artificing) that they should make it known is available and encourage people to go get and come back to Azan, magic they need to think through how to defend against (subtle arts, morph, wizardry, their teleportation defense strategy still leaves something to be desired), and magic where they might want to test the gatekeeping procedures and see how corrupt they are (Loki's spells, wizardry, turning into a magic rock).

At this point - it's been a while, he's running out of ability to absorb new information, and he's got a ridiculous list of things to talk to Azan she about and an additional list of things to talk to Dama about. He finds a polite excuse to pass the envoys off to someone else.

Permalink Mark Unread

And of course Azan she is always happy to meet with Valan, and additionally Dama is always happy to meet with Valan.

Permalink Mark Unread

"I’m worried about their culture tending to... encourage the kinds of mistakes Azan he would have made if the war had gone differently, and I'm worried about the... way that they hate the alternate Sesat exacerbating tensions here if there’s a lot of contact - not just the fact that they do, but that they do for reasons almost no Sesatis are going to agree were bad things. Sometimes on the basis of things that aren't that much different here. They want the right to refuse to let us give our own people magic and they want to refuse people on the basis of having ever struck anyone in anger - they think it’s barbaric and you should be locked up in prison for hitting someone who says your family didn't deserve to die cleanly, but fortunately they've mercifully decided that everyone is going to forget all their old grudges now that they've showed up to enlighten us, and no one else has any complaints about how they do things, oh, except the ones who vanished never to be seen again. - To be clear, I like them fine and I think they mean well."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Meaning well isn't enough if they don't understand the people they mean well towards."

Permalink Mark Unread

"Yeah. But it means we're looking at round number fifteen of 'but will you please explain to me why you're so barbaric as to not want to be just like us, maybe I'll listen this time' and not a war."

Permalink Mark Unread

"True. I just think you're right that we shouldn't join them outright."

Permalink Mark Unread

"The big thing they're offering is being rich enough to pay for all their citizens to feast every day, and they do that and they say it's - important, I think because they don't like desperate people and want more of the sort of work people do when they have time to think - I saw two of their cities and one was just made of art - and I think we can pull that off now that we know them and know which world to go to to meet people who can conjure any object - but we can't guarantee we can maintain that with our own people unless we, uh, pick up our whole planet and move it into another universe."

Permalink Mark Unread

"That sounds drastic."

Permalink Mark Unread

"It does. But it'd mean our children's afterlife was in a place where we could contact them and confirm it was nice."