"Oh, that reminds me of a side question.  Is casting Infernal Healing Evil?  Like uh, in a Pharasma's judgement way, more than the temporary reading it gives you.  As a follow-up... is it more Evil than providing emergency healing to someone?  Oh, and if it matters at all, I can cast it without a material component."

He's rewarding himself for getting through the first pass summary by asking a wizardry related question.

"It is not Evil in itself. Consorting with devils is often Evil, but if you can cast it without a component even that would not be a concern; even if that were not true, the Good of saving someone's life would generally far outweigh any Evil enabled by purchasing the component. As a general rule, if something helps others while hurting no one and bearing no potential to hurt anyone, even indirectly, it is not Evil."

That's a relief!  Casting Infernal Healing without a component is one of his favorite tricks, one he learned all on his own and has gotten a lot of value out of over the years!

"Huh, that's nice to know.  Do you know why it makes the healed creature read Evil temporarily?"

He is maybe stalling on getting back to the main topic.

"The theory I had heard was that it was detecting something residual from the devil that's fueling the spell, but if your spell produces the same effect even without the component, it seems like that theory probably doesn't hold."

Pause.

"Were there any specific events that you were hoping to discuss in more detail?"

"I haven't actually ever check my casting of it.  I'll see about testing it."

He's still stalling.

"Oh, uh, I elided over the torture of some of the Chosen we murdered, I mean we caught them alive before we murdered them.  I uh, wasn't an enthusiastic participant, but I cast a few spells when asked of me.  In one case we got a Chosen to foreswear himself in the course of our tortures.  The idea being to get him sent to the Abyss instead of Hell.  I'm very aware that torture is Evil.  Possibly a tangent, if there was a way to send Asmodean priests to an afterlife other than Hell without their cooperation, and it wasn't torture based, would that be Evil?  Like an inverted Malediction or something."

"—It would depend on how exactly it worked — Maledicting them to the Abyss or Abaddon is already possible, but to my knowledge would still qualify as Evil. But if there were a spell that could send them all to Nirvana, that would be — quite possibly the best thing that has ever happened. No one deserves the torments of Hell, no matter what they've done, not even priests of Asmodeus."

Pause. "I'm sorry to ask you to do this, but could you go into a little more detail about the torture? How many times did you participate in torture? What sorts of spells did you cast? Do you remember how you felt about it at the time?"

"One time we weren't really trying for the foreswearing thing, and someone asked me if I wanted to take a shot, so I obliged with some acid, like an acid splash but a bit stronger because I'm a conjuring specialist.  It made me queasy but I didn't want to look pathetic I then begged off with the excuse that I wanted to get started on the books we had stolen from him.  Another time, they had overdid it on other tortures, I'm not sure what, but the Chosen was bleeding but still conscious, our priest had already used up his healing stopping him from dying right away.  They wanted me to cast an Infernal Healing so the Chosen would be fresh for even more torture, and the Chosen begged me not to and to let him die, and I healed him anyway.  I don't think they got that Chosen to recant or foreswear himself or anything.  The time we got a Chosen to foreswear themselves, the rest of the group asked me to play sympathetic, since I had a reputation for being kind of soft anyway, and I got the Chosen to promise, swear to, several things in exchange for me releasing him and equipping him to escape, uh, with a healing and a mount spell.  I did so, and then the rest of the group immediately caught him, because it was a setup, and then they tortured him and gave him a sort of partial chance to fulfill some of his oaths to me in exchange for more torture, and he refused, so they finally killed him then, secure in the knowledge he wouldn't be going to Hell.   I uh, felt good about that one, that we were denying Asmodeus a soul.  Another time I helped hold a man down while they poured water on his face, some new torture technique our Priest wanted to practice.  I didn't really feel anything with that one, I just sort of, you know, was there.  There was a few other occasions of torture I didn't participate in, I had gotten a reputation for having a weak stomach for it."

He starts out slow, but talks kind of fast by the middle of it, he wants to get through saying it.

There's a longer pause this time before the Select responds.

"I think it was an impulse towards the Good to try to keep him out of Hell, albeit one directed towards Evil, and which most likely did not work. —Our best guess is that actions taken under torture weigh far less on one's alignment than those taken more freely. It was likewise an impulse towards the Good that you had a 'weak stomach' for it, that even facing your enemies there were still limits to what you were comfortable with."

Pause.

"...There is a concept that some people find helpful with this sort of matter, called an 'illegal order'. I don't know if it will be helpful to you, but I suspect it may. Would you like me to explain it?"

It’s kind of annoying hearing that his attempt at foreswearing the Chosen didn’t work, but it makes sense and explains why Gery didn’t bother confirming their success with any alignment detection spells.  (If the Chosen went all the way to Chaotic, Asmodeus would drop him, and he would lose his Lawful Evil aura).

It’s nice to hear his pathetic impulse towards softness might actually be worth some Good!  He’s not sure he wants to cultivate it, but at least he now knows not to suppress it.

“It’s helpful to know that about my impulses…”

“And yes I would like an explanation.  I’m not sure if I want Lawful or Neutral or Chaotic Good, but it sounds like it might be a useful concept?”

It kind of sounds like a contradiction of terms?  But he’s used to theologies having a few mind twisters, Asmodeus’s and Baphomet’s both did.

"It sounds to me like you find it hardest to avoid doing grave Evil in cases where someone that you perceive to have authority over you is ordering or otherwise instructing you to. This is not an unusual problem; in particular, it is extremely common in militaries, even in countries that are not ruled by the forces of Hell. I think you should try very hard to avoid being in a situation where someone you perceive as having authority is likely to order you to do something gravely Evil, but I think it is probably better to be prepared for the possibility of it happening anyway.

Illegal orders are a — framework, you could say — for navigating scenarios where someone gives unconscionable orders. It is primarily used in a military context, and some things that are considered illegal orders don't really make sense outside of that context, but the same principles can sometimes generalize. Illegal orders are generally understood to encompass — the sort of thing where it is better to establish a clear line against it ever being done? In Lastwall, and in organizations sponsored by the institutional Church of Iomedae, the orders that are considered to qualify are clearly defined, and include ordering someone to torture someone else, or to commit a crime, or to submit to or carry out a punishment that requires a court-martial if there hasn't in fact been a court-martial. Andoran does not aspire to Lawfulness, but it similarly has the concept that people may refuse unconscionable orders, albeit enforced in a" worse "more haphazard way. If someone in Lastwall, even the Lord-Watcher himself, issues an illegal order, their subordinates are not just permitted but obligated to refuse. I think — the general concept that one should refuse sufficiently egregious orders is not unique to any alignment, but some people find it helpful to have a list of specific orders that are illegal to issue in the Church of Iomedae, and a framework for refusing. —It's fine if it doesn't end up being useful to you. Chaotic Good people who conceptualize 'not torturing people even if ordered' as a form of prioritizing Good over Law are still achieving the end of not torturing people, even if they came about it a different way.

But part of the concept is that — it is a wrong to someone to give them an illegal order. It was a wrong to you to order you to participate in torturing people. It was a greater wrong to the people actually being tortured, of course, but that doesn't mean you weren't wronged."

"That is a useful concept, but maybe this case is slightly different and you have some related concept?  Uh, the way the cult was run, few things were actual orders, uh, like it did have orders but a lot of things were 'requests' or even just 'suggestions'.  Most things, like most of the cases of participating in the torture, it was like, if you didn't do them, Gery would be a bit less friendly and everyone would follow and maybe mock you a bit and it would kind of be uncomfortable.  Like the mockery was milder than anything normal (for Cheliax at least, I'm starting to realize), but it still hurt, because everyone was usually much friendly than is normal, uh by Chelish standards.  Gery had authority, but he usually discussed things with the group, and he would only outright directly order us, with like the implicit suggestion of death for disobedience, if it was the group's safety at stake or something like that."

He keeps hearing how being pathetic was actually bits of Goodness, but he really doesn't see how torturing people so other people will be slightly nicer to you will count, it's just plain pathetic, not even secretly Good pathetic.

"It is also not unusual to find it more difficult to avoid Evil when everyone around you is treating those Evils as normal and mistreating anyone who refuses to participate. I think it would be a good idea for you to try to avoid falling in with another group like that. But — it isn't always possible, sometimes people who seem perfectly fine in most contexts will turn out to have fewer scruples about how they treat their enemies.

There isn't one single strategy that will work for everyone in scenarios like that, but — many people find it helpful to identify specific behaviors, like torture or rape, and commit themselves to avoiding those behaviors no matter what, even if it feels like a good idea in the moment. Some people find it helpful to imagine situations where someone else is trying to persuade them to do Evil, and specifically imagine themselves refusing, so that if those situations do happen it feels more possible to refuse. Some people find it helpful to have a trusted friend who they know would not countenance that sort of thing, and speak with them regularly about what they've been doing, so that they always know that if they do something gravely Evil they would have to admit it to their friend. Some people find that some avoidable scenarios make them much more willing to do Evil, like drunkenness, and those people should generally avoid whatever it is that makes them more willing to do Evil.

...some people also find it helpful to keep in mind that — it's not really doing your friends a favor if you let them pressure you into Evil. Convincing another person to do Evil is itself Evil. The best thing to do, if you could manage it, would be to talk your friends down from torture. Most people are not good enough at persuasion to do that, and it's not Evil to be unable to convince them, but joining in isn't just worse for your victim, or for your own soul, it's a little worse for your friends' souls too."

Pause.

"Were there any cases where someone tried to convince you to do something Evil, where you thought they'd make fun of you or similarly mistreat you for refusing, but where you refused anyways? And if so, what made those cases different?"

Great, now he feels terrible remembering the fact that all of his former group are going to be tortured for eternity, save for the unlikely chance the find their way out or Baphomet is actually good for protection in the Abyss. 

Wow, that question is surprisingly hard for something so small and simple.  "Well... not exactly any major examples... uh"  wait, maybe it counts "sometimes when the group was split up, some of the people I was with would want to get up to petty theft or vandalism that wasn't in the plan, whatever the plan was, and I would remind them to stay on the mission and stay focused and they'd get annoyed at me but usually listen.  I don't know if that actually counts for what you're talking about?  It was a pragmatic choice, we couldn't afford extra risks and I didn't want us all to get caught, and I didn't actually find it fun, and we in fact had pretty strong recommendations if not outright orders not to.  Uh... not hurting uninvolved commoners or whoever would be stolen or vandalized from was pretty far down my list of motives, if it was even on it." 

She keeps explaining how his motives actually had traces of Goodness, so maybe it was one of this motives and he didn't realize it?

"Uh, they would be annoyed at me afterwards and maybe make a few unfriendly jokes, so I guess it counts for that?  And those cases were different because there was a clear pragmatic self-interested reason not to do the Evil thing and I tried to be pragmatic."

"And your pragmatic interest in avoiding damnation was insufficient to motivate you in other cases because — you weren't sure which things were Evil, or believed that you would be damned no matter what, or just weren't thinking about it in the moment, or...?"

"I knew roughly which things were Evil, but I've learned a lot of nuance in the past few days.  At the time, I was hopeful the Baphomet actually rewarded his loyal followers.  I mean, our group was better at watching each other's backs than people in Cheliax normally are, so I hoped the Abyss under Baphomet's protection would be substantially better than Hell.  To the extent I thought about it at all, I figured it was a lot easier to be Chaotic instead of Lawful, but being Good instead of Evil would be a lot harder, so finding a patron in the Abyss seemed a safer bet.  I had some causes for doubt... everything I learned about the Abyss and Pharasma suggested she wouldn't actually give a shit about bothering with sending people to their patrons in the first place.  Uh... everything I had ever learned about demons was suggestive that even with an overall patron protecting an allied group against outside demons, even within that allied group they might be worse to each other than my mortal group was.  And as for Baphomet himself, it was like Gery was one of us, but I kind of worried a more distant leader that wasn't one of the group might be a lot worse to their followers.  But none of these were enough to make me break with the group completely and try to be Good.  We didn't mind read each other as much as I've got the impression that Asmodean wizards do, but we still mind read each other some.  So I didn't do any long term thinking that would be disloyal."

"With the circumstances in Andoran, I think long term pragmatic interest is enough to motivate me, even if it isn't for most people."

She apparently can't report him or break confidentiality, so he doesn't need that last disclaimer to protect himself if she's worried he won't stick to trying to be Good, but it is in fact true, and the more information she has the better for advising him.

"Scrying on the Abyss works only intermittently, but it does work sometimes, and as far as people have been able to tell the Abyss is much worse than any of the Good or Neutral afterlives, even for demon-worshippers, though plausibly still an improvement on Hell. If you distrust the secondhand reports and have a suitable scrying focus for someone who has died long enough ago to be sorted, you could potentially verify this for yourself by commissioning a Scrying. From the descriptions of your group, it sounds — much more pleasant and functional than even the least negative descriptions I have ever heard of the Abyss."

Pause. "Was there anything else you wanted to tell me about your past?"

“I have some complicated feelings about the circumstances I left, uh, escaped under.  Should I explain that part?”

"Please do. —If it would be very distressing for you, you can leave it be for now."

"Not any more distressed than explaining the other stuff I already have, maybe even less.  Uh, so, I'll just start from a few weeks ago.  I had just hit third circle, which meant my alignment was readable if not illusioned or abjured.  So the types of roles I could effectively operate in changed.  We didn't have a lot of third circle scrolls for me to copy spells out of to spare, I was actually now our highest circle wizard.  So the plan was for me to transfer to another group entirely, one that had a third circle I could copy from and that ran operations that could use an additional third circle wizard.  We had this cell kind of structure, only the leaders of each group knew the leaders of other groups, and we had all sorts of contingencies with dead drops and such for exchanging information without learning enough to compromise another group if someone was caught.  There was allegedly a central group with a teleport-capable wizard backing us up.  I had assumed this was an elaborate bluff.  We had gotten extra resources like a wand here or scroll there over the years, but I assumed Gery had hidden away extra bits of supplies he could introduce under the pretense of a mysterious central group as needed and it would be a bigger moral booster than just being supplies he had all along.  So I was instructed to travel cross country to this meet-up point, I had pretty detailed instructions, including the possibility of someone from the central group scrying me if there was problems.  Again, I was assuming that part was a bluff, maybe to make me more confident, maybe to cover for any chance I might defect or ditch them or something.  Are you following me so far?"

His voice is calm and even as he describes all of this (he is noticeably calmer than earlier).

"Yes, I believe so."

"So, trying to meet up with this other group, I instead meet up with some Andoran adventurers, Eagle Knights, who had just finished doing Eagle Knight things, as it turned out.  I screw up checking for the pass-phrase, and I assume they are the people I was supposed to meet, and blab for a bit before I figure it out.  But they are really friendly!  So, uh, I tell them about me being a Baphomet cultist, and, long story short, they pitch me on not being Evil and leaving the cult and escaping to Andoran, and I agree."

He starting to get awkward in his speech again.

"I tell them about the possibility of the whole 'scry check-in' thing, and we figure out plans a day or two later to do a counter ambush if a scry check-in actually happens and then actually leads to anyone teleporting on top of us."

He pauses for questions.

Why are the Eagle Knights importing random cultists of Baphomet — not the point right now. At least it seems to have worked out in this case, even if the decision procedure that led them to do so was otherwise leading them to take unjustifiable risks.

"To confirm, you were working under the assumption that anyone Teleporting to your location most likely intended to seriously harm you?"

"That is the part I was getting to that I feel bad about.  I didn't know that for sure, and I think I said as much to the Eagle Knights?  It was possible, according to the information I had at the time, that in the event of a scry and teleport, they really did just intend to teleport me to the group I was supposed to meet up with, with punishment that would be mild by Chelish standards, maybe even Andoran military standards, if it was my fault for messing up the meetup, maybe even no punishment at all..."

He pauses for a moment as if to allow questions, then thinks of one more thing to say.

"To be clear, I'm really sure they wouldn't have taken the news I plan to defect well, so informing them not to teleport to me because I was leaving probably wouldn't have gone well for me, but there is a chance that maybe they would have decided not to bother with the teleport?"

He pauses again.

"That sounds — challenging to navigate. I think it would be helpful to hear the rest of what happened, and then we can discuss whether there is anything that you could reasonably have done differently."